Ricochet Trap and counterspells
Asked by SimicPower 9 years ago
I recently discovered the gatherer ruling that you cannot use Ricochet Trap or similar cards to change the target of a Counterspell to itself. I understand that you can still change it to target Ricochet Trap, so you can still effectively use it counter counterspells.
My real question is how this works ruleswise. Cancel seems like a valid target for Cancel once it's on the stack, because it reads "counter target spell". Why doesn't Cancel count as "target spell"?
Epochalyptik says... #2
114.4. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.
December 1, 2014 10:05 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #3
If you cast Ricochet Trap targeting a spell that targets a spell on the stack (like Cancel does, for example), you can't change that spell's target to itself. You can, however, change that spell's target to Ricochet Trap. If you do, that spell will be countered when it tries to resolve because Ricochet Trap will have left the stack by then.
You don't choose the new target for the spell until Ricochet Trap resolves. You must change the target if possible. However, you can't change the target to an illegal target. If there are no legal targets to choose from, the target isn't changed. It doesn't matter if the original target of that spell has somehow become illegal itself.
The gatherer explains it pretty well, but as Epoch said, spells cannot target themselves.
December 1, 2014 10:11 p.m.
I believe the primary reason spells can't target themselves is partly that Wizards doesn't want you being able to play some kinds of spells just willy-nilly no matter what else is going on (I'd be happy, while building my storm count in Legacy to just toss a Force of Will out at nothing in particular, for example) and partly because it is just super counter-intuitive from a process standpoint that a spell which targets can go on the stack first and then be chosen as the target for the spell. I think they want that to feel as simultaneous as possible even though structurally it has to follow a sequence of events.
It is harder to get your head around "You aren't allowed to cast Flame Slash if there are no creatures on the battlefield" if at the time time "You are allowed to cast Counterspell if there are no spells on the stack."
December 2, 2014 8:33 a.m.
The fun part is when Remand is on the stack and Ricochet Trap redirects Remand to target Ricochet Trap. Ricochet trap resolves, goes to the grave and remand has no legal target so.. no carddraw for your opponent.Ricochet Trap does not go back in your hand since it resolves first(presuming it was the last spell/ability put on the stack) before Remand tries to resolve.
filledelanuit says... Accepted answer #1
This is because there is a specific section in the comp rules that says that a spell cannot target itself. I don't know the exact number but you ca look it up. The rule. Exists because a spell is put on to the stack before you choose targets so you would have been able to target a spell with itself. It was created to keep weird interactions from happening. I don't know one off the top of my head but there are some weird things that would be able to happen if that rule didn't exist.
December 1, 2014 10:01 p.m.