Necromantic Selection and Hurl Through Hell stealing commanders
Asked by Voralnic 1 year ago
Ok so, I have both Necromantic Selection and Hurl Through Hell in my Rakdos deck, they are both able to steal other people's creatures but I wanna know if they are able to steal commanders, I am not too familiar with how SBAs work and when they are checked.
When a commander is destroyed, they go to it's owner's graveyard, and then it's owner can decide if they stay there or if they go to the command zone. However, when Necromantic Selection destroys a commander, does it's owner get to send it to the command zone before the ability fully resolves and it tries to reanimate it as a zombie ? And if they do, Necromantic Selection destroyed the commander anyway, it doesn't specify if it needs to be in a graveyard or not so does it even matter if the commander stays in it's owner's graveyard or if it changed zones ?
Hurl Through Hell doesn't specify that you can only cast the creature from exile so I don't know if it cares about a commander moving from exile to the command zone or not.
Any explanation with rules attached to prove it would be VERY welcomed, thank you very much.
Madcookie You are correct about Necromatic Selection
However, Hurl Through Hell works a little differently. Since it's worded as "Exile target creature. Until the end of your next turn, you may cast that card", it tracks the card in exile. If it gets moved to a different zone, it's considered an entirely different object.
So say Hurl sends it to exile. Hurl resolves, and is now pointing to the card in exile. SBA: Commander moves to command zone. Hurl will still point to exile, but there is nothing there you can cast.
Rule 400.7h is for replacement effects like Leyline of the Void
September 20, 2022 9:14 a.m.
@Delphen7 I re-red the entire rule 400.7 and I'm inclined to agree. Hurl Through Hell doesn't specify from where you can cast that card, but it should lose track of it once it changes zones twice.
400.7 An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are eight exceptions to this rule: (Note from me, the rule I originally referenced is an exception to this but it considers the part where Hurl Through Hell moves the object from the battlefield to exile and still tracks it). It shouldn't be able to continue tracking it after the commander's controller moves it to the command zone and the card becomes a new object)
September 20, 2022 10:49 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
400.7h is actually the relevant rule in this case, but it is interpreted in the way that correctly identifies that Hurl Through Hell will lose track of the commander when it is put into the command zone.
The effect of Hurl Through Hell puts the commander into exile, it knows where it is at this point and will allow you to cast it. CR 704.6d then puts the commander into the command zone and Hurl Through Hell isn't what caused this move, so now it can no longer find it.
I have also included the bit about when SBAs are checked to give a reference for the statement "Since state-based actions are only checked after Necromantic Selection has resolved and the chosen commander is not in a graveyard, but back on the battlefield, the opponent can't put it back in their command zone."
704.6d In a Commander game, if a commander is in a graveyard or in exile and that object was put into that zone since the last time state-based actions were checked, its owner may put it into the command zone.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
September 20, 2022 11:07 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
Voralnic: Answers to your question have been up for a while. Since there don't seem to be any more follow-ups or corrections to be made, I marked one of them as the "Accepted answer" so this topic can move out of the list of unanswered questions. In the future you can take care of this yourself using the "Mark as Answer" button on the response that you feel best answers your question.
September 30, 2022 9:01 a.m.
Thank you Rhadamanthus ! I didn't know if I was supposed to do it or if a mod/judge was supposed to make that decision.
Also thank you Madcookie , Delphen7 and Gidgetimer for answering. I understand it much better now !
Madcookie says... #1
Tough question, but I do believe both should work.
For Necromantic Selection since they changed the rules for commander dying, it is now NOT a replacement effect, but a state-based effect, meaning it can be enacted whenever a player would get priority and that is not during a spell resolving.
Rule 903.9a If a commander is in a graveyard or in exile and that object was put into that zone since the last time state-based actions were checked, its owner may put it into the command zone. This is a state-based action. See rule 704.
Since state-based actions are only checked after Necromantic Selection has resolved and the chosen commander is not in a graveyard, but back on the battlefield, the opponent can't put it back in their command zone.
Hurl Through Hell doesn't specify from which zone the card can be cast and since the command zone is public zone i.e not hand or library, the spell shouldn't lose track of the exiled object (the commander).
Rule 400.7h If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability’s effects can find that object.
That is all I could find, hope this helps. Cheers!
September 20, 2022 1:34 a.m.