Ivy Lane Denizen and Evolve
Asked by Rkynick 12 years ago
If Ivy Lane Denizen places a +1/+1 counter on a creature entering the battlefield, are the creature's base stats used for Evolve calculations, or are its now modified stats used? (i.e. what triggers first, evolve or ILD?)
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
@Absinthman: Your answer is somewhat misleading.
Because evolve's wording uses an intervening if clause, evolve abilities only trigger if the creature entering the battlefield is entering with a higher power or toughness than the creature with evolve. If the entering creature doesn't ETB with a higher P/T, evolve doesn't trigger. If that creature later gains a higher P/T, it doesn't matter; evolve won't retroactively trigger.
That said, abilities that require information about the game check that information only when they resolve.
February 18, 2013 12:53 p.m.
Absinthman says... #3
I don't see anything misleading about my answer. The question, as it is posed, is about a situation when a creature (let's say Experiment One enters the battlefield and simultaneously triggers evolve on another creature (let's say Cloudfin Raptor with 0 counters on it) together with Ivy Lane Denizen 's ability. Now I believe Rkynick was asking whether Cloudfin Raptor would first evolve and then get the counter from Ivy Lane Denizen or the other way round. I only said that it's up to him how he stacks it. If he puts the Denizen's ability onto the stack first and then the evolve ability, Raptor will first become a 1/2 and then get the second counter from the Denizen to become 2/3. If he stacks it the opposite way, Raptor will first get the counter from the Denizen, becomeing 1/2 and then will no longer be eligible to evolve, because as you say, indented "if"clause checks for conditions at the time of resolution.
February 18, 2013 1:10 p.m.
I'm not sure I follow, now. If I have a 1/3 with evolve on the field and ILD and play a 1/3, will giving that new creature the +1/+1 result in the pre-existing 1/3 evolving? Or does the new 1/3 enter first, fail to trigger evolve, and then receive the counter and fail to retroactively trigger evolve?
February 18, 2013 1:12 p.m.
Absinthman says... #5
Well, yeah, now that I read my answer, I assume it could be misunderstood. I should have used more detailed explanation.
February 18, 2013 1:12 p.m.
Absinthman says... #6
To answer your next question, I must say no. If the triggered ability has an intervening "if" clause or requires other conditions, it triggers ONLY if these conditions are true. So if you have a 1/3 evolver and another 1/3 enters the battlefield, evolve will not trigger at all (unless there are some state based effects that increase your creatures' stats like Collective Blessing . Subsequent putting a +1/+1 from Ivy Lane Denizen on that creature will not retroactively trigger evolve either.
February 18, 2013 1:20 p.m.
Absinthman says... #7
Sorry, disregard the brackets about Collective Blessing . That doesn't work because it affects all creatures, including the evolvee. Better example would be Zameck Guildmage 's first ability. It creates a replacement effect that makes your ceature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter, so said 1/3 would enter the battlefield as 2/4 triggering evolve on the previous 1/3.
February 18, 2013 1:23 p.m.
Absinthman says... #9
I'll just try to sum it up: The important thing about triggers with intervening "if" clause is that they check whether the condition is true two times. Let's say you have that Crocanura and you cast Immortal Servitude with X=2, returning two Disciple of the Old Ways to the battlefield (I know this combination of cards sounds silly, but it's just an example). Crocanura's evolve ability sees two creatures that entered the battlefield and checks for their stats for the first time. Both instances see that those creatures have higher power, so they both trigger. Then the first evolve resolves and checks for conditions for the second time. It sees that the power of the creatue that caused it to trigger is still higher than Crocanura, so it resolves positively and adds a counter. Then the second evolve resolves and checks for contiton for its second time too, but this time it sees that the creature no longer has higher stats. Condition hasn't pass the second check so evolve fizzles. Crocanura gets only 1 counter.
Absinthman says... #1
It depends solely on your choice. When multiple triggered abilities of a single controller trigger simultaneously, their controller specifies the order in which they're playced onto the stack. This means you can put the Ivy Lane Denizen 's ability onto the stack first, then all evolve triggers, resolve all evolves and then put the extra counter generated by the Denizen onto the creature that wouldn't have evolved in case you had done it the other way round.
February 18, 2013 12:42 p.m.