is playing a card the same as casting it?
Asked by Battlecry1986 12 years ago
Ok so this is a two part question.
First, I had Kaho, Minamo Historian in play with a Cryptic Command strapped to his back. It's my opponents turn he has Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and is trying to cast Knowledge Pool. He instantly states he has won the game. I request an explanation and
he states something to the effect of
Due to Teferi I can't cast spells at instant speed and all spell cast from the knowledge pool are cast at instant speed so I in fact can't cast spells.
(I disagree with this but respond by tapping Kaho and playing cryptic command as a counterspell)
he goes on to claim that I in fact can't play cryptic command at instant speed because macho states that I'm "playing it" and he contended that playing is the same as casting and that his Teferi in play wouldn't allow it..
please tell me he's all wrong.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #2
My apologies I completely forgot about Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. In this case I don't think it matters since you used Kaho's ability, yet the whole casting thing I just pointed out makes me leary of my own answer.
March 9, 2013 11:13 a.m.
I don't understand. With Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir on the board you can't cast instants. The wording of Kaho, Minamo Historian has been changed to say you 'cast' the spell. But doing so would be invalid because the counterspell would have to occur in the opponent's turn - at instant speed.
March 9, 2013 11:16 a.m.
theasianv2 says... #4
unfortunately your friend is correct. If Teferi is in play and he plays knowledge pool it is pretty much lock down. In response to your first question:
Kaho, Minamo is casting the spell and because it is your opponents turn Teferi does not allow you to cast cryptic command.
Answer to second question: In order for you to cast a spell on your turn the stack must be empty in order for you to even attempt to cast. Because you sorcery spells cannot be added on to a stack. The problem here is that knowledge pool immediately goes on that stack and so when you try to cast the card a stack has already formed
there are very few answers to this lock down such as Resounding Thunder you can do this because cycling is a activated ability that does not get cast.
hope that helps
March 9, 2013 11:55 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #5
I'll break it down a bit more:
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir states you (the opponent of its controller) may only cast spells whenever you could cast a sorcery. You can only cast a sorcery on your own main phase when the stack is empty.
Kaho, Minamo Historian's ability causes you to cast an exiled card. Play (the verb) is old, blanket terminology, and has been updated to cast in instances where it refers to spells or nonland cards. Always check the Oracle text for cards you're using; it will usually clarify exactly what is happening.
Because Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir's ability stops you from casting spells, Kaho, Minamo Historian's ability won't do anything when it resolves (note that you may still activate the ability).
Also, to the Knowledge Pool lock, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir+Knowledge Pool is a combo. Whenever a player casts a spell, Knowledge Pool's ability triggers. When Knowledge Pool's ability resolves, it exiles that spell and instructs its controller to cast another card from the "pool." Because Knowledge Pool's ability is still on the stack (spells and abilities only leave the stack as the last step of their resolutions), you aren't able to cast anything because Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir limits you to sorcery-speed casts. Your spell is still exiled, but you don't get to cast out of the pool.
March 9, 2013 12:18 p.m.
From the Gatherer Ruings: If an ability lets an opponent cast a spell as part of its effect (such as Isochron Scepter's ability does), that opponent can't cast that spell since the currently resolving ability is still on the stack.
This is reiterating what theasianv2 said. Since a counterspell only has a legal target while another spell is on the stack and since you can only cast a spell over an empty stack because of Teferi, you in fact cannot use Minamo. It is essentially the same situation as the one noted in the ruling with Isochron Scepter.
March 9, 2013 12:24 p.m.
Morgannaschild says... #7
I would actually disagree with you have no options though. People seem to forget that Knowledge Pool states the spell must be from your hand you can therefor use you Cryptic Command on your turn to return Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir to his hand Knowledge Pool cannot activate because the spell must come from the hand Kaho, Minamo Historian cast from exile. Knowledge Pool cannot affect it and next time he tries to use Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir counter it. Your enemy had not won. Look for your options often people assume there are none when there is a way to weasel through the rules.
March 22, 2014 6:41 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
@Morgannaschild: This thread is over a year old. Please check post dates before commenting.
You're incorrect. As we explained last year, you can't cast Cryptic Command because you would have to cast it during the resolution of Kaho, Minamo Historian 's ability. Remember that objects are removed from the stack as the last step in their resolution, so Kaho, Minamo Historian 's ability is still on the stack when you are instructed to cast the spell. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir prevents you from casting spells at any time other than a time when you could normally cast a sorcery. Because Kaho, Minamo Historian 's ability is on the stack, you can't cast the spell.
March 22, 2014 7:26 p.m.
Morgannaschild says... #9
@Epochalyptik Just because something is old does not mean that information cannot be shared. Remember that Kaho, Minamo Historian can indeed cast sorceries with her ability as such Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir has his ability satisfied. Because you could play a sorcery the with the ability the two abilities interact differently than you are supposing. With her ablity you can cast a sorcery you can only cast any time you could cast a sorcery so you can cast what you would like with her.
March 22, 2014 8:23 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
@Morgannaschild: Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir 's ability is not "satisfied." The ability creates a timing restriction that prevents you from taking a specific action at a specific time. Kaho, Minamo Historian 's ability instructs you to take a now-restricted action at a now-restricted time. You can't override Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir 's ability. Just because Kaho, Minamo Historian 's ability says "You may play a card" does not mean you can ignore other restrictions on those cards.
Furthermore, Kaho, Minamo Historian 's ability does not allow you to cast sorceries. It explicitly defines that it only interacts with instants.
Lastly, "Whenever you could cast a sorcery" is MTG shorthand for "During your main phase while the stack is empty and you have priority." Effects that change when you could currently cast a sorcery spell do not change the meaning of this phrase.
March 22, 2014 8:40 p.m.
Morgannaschild says... #11
Ahh I did not read Kaho well enough my apologizes.
March 22, 2014 9:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
The principle is the same, regardless. You can't cast anything with Kaho, Minamo Historian 's ability because the ability is on the stack when you are instructed to cast the spell. That means you can't cast anything -- not even instants -- because Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir 's ability prevents it.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #1
Kaho, Minamo Historian's Oracle text on getherer is right here. It has been changed to cast. Macho man is still wrong, because Knowledge Pool's effect doesn't take place until it's on the battlefield. IT CAN STILL BE COUNTERED. So while you did "cast" with Kaho, Minamo Historian, you also countered Knowledge Pool.
March 9, 2013 11:11 a.m.