Is it an infinite combo?
Asked by creepingcosmos 7 years ago
My friend and I found a question we couldn't find a definitive answer to. With a Hardened Scales + Winding Constrictor on the board my friend swung at me with SkullBriar and we became uncertain if the counters added to Skullbriar were infinite. Anyone got an answer?
bluechandra says... #3
creepingcosmos Otherwise 2 winding contractor would also go infinite, breaking standard. Well, probably not quite breaking, but that combo would definitely see a lot of use.
June 24, 2017 9:37 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
Note that "if" is not an indicator of a replacement effect (there are triggered abilities with intervening if clauses, such as the evolve ability on Experiment One).
"Instead" is used to denote a replacement effect, with one event happening instead of another.
Note also that replacement effects do not trigger; they're static abilities, not triggered abilities. They don't use the stack, and they can't be responded to. Replacement effects only apply once to a given event. Because they're not triggered, they don't stack or invoke themselves repeatedly.
June 24, 2017 11:30 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... Accepted answer #5
To specifically answer the question, replacement effects only apply to a single event one time.
If multiple replacement effects are trying to be applied to one event, the controller of the event being replaced chooses which one to apply, and if the other is still applicable, it is then also applied.
In your case, you choose which replacement effect to apply first, be it Hardened Scales or Winding Constrictor, and since the other is still applicable, it is then applied as well.
Also, Epochalyptik is correct in "if" is not always an identifier for replacement effects, "instead" is.
Relevant rules:
614.1a Effects that use the word instead are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word instead to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.
614.5. A replacement effect doesnt invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected objects controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
June 24, 2017 12:27 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
Side note: if for some reason, the rules were hypothetically written in such a way that this did create an infinite loop of replacement effects, and no player in the game had a way to stop it, the game would become a draw because it would be a never ending loop.
June 24, 2017 12:29 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #8
Active Player Non-Active Player.
Meaning, in a multiplayer game, the Active player is the player who's turn it currently is. And each Non-Active player is everyone else, in turn order from the Active Player.
So if there are 3 players, A B and C, and it is B's turn: B is the active player, and C and A are the non-active players, in that order.
June 24, 2017 2:36 p.m.
Sorry about getting that wrong Raging_Squiggle, and Epochalyptik. No use after all, in giving out incorrect information.
June 24, 2017 7:02 p.m.
bushido_man96 says... #10
Thank you, Raging_Squiggle. I'm guessing the "order" is around the table to the left?
June 25, 2017 12:57 a.m.
@bluechandra: It wouldn't likely see a lot of use, seeing as an infinite loop causes the current game to be a draw. Only being able to play a single Winding Constrictor is much more constricting than Standard decks would want to go with.
@bushido_man96: It's turn order, whichever that may be at the current time (Topsy Turvy and one of the Planechase planes which's name I can't recall also change the direction of turn order).
June 25, 2017 6:57 a.m.
bluechandra says... #12
@BlueScope I know that; my assumption ws based off the fact that constrictor counters already sees a ton of play, so that would increase it.
June 25, 2017 8:18 a.m.
@bluechandra: What I'm arguing is that it would decrease it, because you would limit yourself to one of those permanents at the most on the battlefield. It would weaken the deck's mechanism, as currently, Winding Constrictors are strong in multiples - in the scenario you describe, additional ones would be dead cards in your hand, unless you would deliberately try to end the game in a draw.
Either way, since that's not the way the ability works, I guess there's not much reason to fuss over it :)
June 25, 2017 12:16 p.m.
creepingcosmos, If your question has been answered please select an answer to remove this from the active questions queue.
Errast says... #1
Winding Constrictor and Hardened Scales both use if as part of their wording, which means they're replacement effects. To prevent infinite loops, replacement effects can only trigger once, although they will stack. So Skullbriar gets 3 counters in the end.
June 24, 2017 3:24 a.m.