How does the double block with spike-tailed certops work?
Asked by Nuubi 6 years ago
Alright guys last one for the night... I think lol So I’m confused as to if Spike-Tailed Ceratops blocks two creatures simultaneously and the damage is cumulative or does the blocker get to choose the order damage is done from the creatures ? Sorry not the best description I know. I don’t remember the exact scenario. Any input would be helpful.
Gidgetimer says... #2
The following is the order of things happening in the assign blockers step and explains how damage assignment order works. I can't find how something like trample would work in the comprehensive rules, so I'm about to go check some card rulings. I will fill you in if I figure anything out.
509.2. Second, for each attacking creature that's become blocked, the active player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, an attacking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
509.3. Third, for each blocking creature, the defending player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures it's blocking in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, a blocking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature it's blocking unless each creature ahead of that blocked creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
February 10, 2019 7:54 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
I found what happens in the rules for trample. You take into account damage assigned in the same combat damage step, so the controller of the two blocked creatures could assign trample damage as long as the Spike-Tailed Ceratops is being assigned lethal damage in the combat damage step.
702.19b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. The attacking creature's controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can't assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking.
February 10, 2019 8:02 p.m.
So after reading that about a dozen times.... I think I follow. So for instance if I attack Spiked-Tail Ceratops with a 3/3 and a 5/5 the blocking player would assign Spiked-Tail Ceratops to block the 3/3 first dealing lethal damage to the 3/3, then with it’s left over 1 toughness be able to block the 5/5?
February 10, 2019 10:02 p.m.
Blockers are declared all at once, and damage is dealt all at once, so it's not a case of using the leftover toughness to block the 5/5.
Say you attack with two 5/5 creatures. Nothing fancy, just two 5/5 creatures. Your opponent can declare Spike-Tailed Ceratops as a blocker for both creatures, because its ability lets it block an additional creature each combat (so two instead of the usual one). Both of your 5/5 creatures are now blocked. Then in the damage step, all three creatures deal their damage as assigned. The ceratops takes 10 damage, and your creatures take a total of 4 between them, not enough to kill even one. But they're still blocked, so without trample the damage won't "spill over" to your opponent.
February 10, 2019 10:34 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #6
Not quite, think of it exactly like blocking one creature with two just in reverse. The blocking Spike-Tailed Ceratops doesn't have to have any toughness "left over" in order to block the second creature. If the defending player wants to throw it in front of 2 10/10s they can. It can simply block two creatures.
I thought that you were asking about who decides how damage is dealt and so I linked the rules on who decides how damage is dealt. The attacking player decides what order their creatures deal damage to each creature blocking them, and then the defending player decides what order their creatures deal damage to what they blocked.
Let's add a second Spike-Tailed Ceratops for the defender and a second attacking 3/3. Each Spike-Tailed Ceratops blocks a separate 3/3 and both block the 5/5.
After blocks are declared the attacking player decides what order their creatures assign combat damage. Each 3/3 only has 1 thing to assign damage to so their assignment order is just that one thing. When they decide the damage order for the 5/5 they declare which Spike-Tailed Ceratops is taking damage first.
Then the defending player decides the damage order for the Spike-Tailed Ceratops es. They can decide to put the 3/3s in front of the 5/5 in damage assignment order for each Ceratops, put the 5/5 in front of each 3/3, or do one of each. There could be advantages or disadvantages to each of these three scenarios.
TL;DR
Spike-Tailed Ceratops can just block 2 things. there are no real limits on what those 2 things can be, as long as they would normally be blockable by it.
The controller of a creature decides what order it deals damage to stuff if there are multiple things blocking/blocked by it.
February 10, 2019 10:52 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
Ninja'd because I had to stop mid-post to do something.
February 10, 2019 10:53 p.m.
Gidgetimer, I was looking through the rules yesterday as I was still a bit confused on blocking with multiple creatures. I cleared that up for myself I believe, but as I was reading through I found this relating to this topic and it made me scratch my head. Because you said I could throw two 10/10’s or w.e it may be and the spike tail Ceratops would block no matter what. After reading this though it seems to contradict that.
“ 510.1d A blocking creature assigns combat damage to the creatures it's blocking. If it isn't currently blocking any creatures (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If it's blocking exactly one creature, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If it's blocking two or more creatures, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocking creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that it's blocking unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocked creature is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it. 510.1e Once a player has assigned combat damage from each attacking or blocking creature they control, the total damage assignment (not solely the damage assignment of any individual attacking or blocking creature) is checked to see if it complies with the above rules. If it doesn't, the combat damage assignment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that player began to assign combat damage. (See rule 721, "Handling Illegal Actions").
Any thoughts?
February 23, 2019 11:47 a.m.
You're getting two different issues confused--blocking and assignment of damage.
The Combat Phase is generally divided into five different steps. These are: (1) Beginning of Combat Step; (2) Declare Attackers Step; (3) Declare Blockers Step; (4) Combat Damage Step (possibly multiple Combat Damage Steps if First/Double/Last/Triple Strike creatures are at play); (5) End of Combat Step.
Let's walk through double combat one step at a time. Amy will be our Attacker, attacking with 3/3, and a 5/5. Dan is our Defender, with a Spike-Tailed Ceratops .
(1) Beginning of Combat Step
Amy chooses Dan as the defending player. There is a round of priority (players can cast spells or activate abilities).
(2) Declare Attackers Step
Amy declares her 5/5 and her 3/3 as attacking creatures attacking Dan. There is a round of priority.
(3) Declare Blockers Step
Dan declares that Spike-Tailed Ceratops is blocking both the 5/5 and the 3/3. Now those two creatures are blocked by the Spike-Tailed Ceratops . Note how, at this Step, there is nothing about damage assignment or lethal damage being necessary. Blocking is a binary system--a creature is either blocked or it is not.
(4) Combat Damage Step
Here is where damage assignment matters.
Amy will first announce how she is assigning damage. If neither of her creatures have trample, she will be forced to assign both the 5/5's and 3/3's damage to the Spike-Tailed Ceratops . So that would be 7 damage assigned to the Spike-Tailed Ceratops .
If the 5/5 has Trample, Amy can assign the 3/3's 3 points of damage to the Spike-Tailed Ceratops , 1 point from the 5/5 to the Ceratops, resulting in 4 total points of damage (enough to be lethal) assigned to the Ceratops, and then the remaining 4 points from the 5/5 to Dan.
Or, if the Trample is on the 3/3, Amy could assign all 5 points of damage from the 5/5 to the Ceratops, which would be lethal, then the 3/3 could Trample 3 points over.
At this point, Amy has only announced damage order; no damage has been assigned.
Next, Dan announces his damage order.
He has one creature, a 4/4, to divide between the 5/5 and the 3/3. He has three options.
He can assign damage first to the 3/3, then the 5/5. He has to assign 3 points of damage to the 3/3, as he must assign lethal damage before moving to the next creature in the order. He would then assign 1 point of damage to the 5/5.
He can assign all 4 points of damage to the 5/5. Because he did not deal lethal damage to the 5/5, he cannot move down to the next creature in the order, so the 3/3 would not take any damage.
He can also assign all 4 damage to the 3/3, assigning more-than-lethal damage, with no damage to the 5/5.
Notice how all of this deals with damage assignment, not whether the creature is blocked or not. The binary "blocked/unblocked" from the Declare Blockers Step is not changed in the slightest. Even if a blocker deals 0 damage to a creature it is blocking, that attacking creature is still considered blocked.
From an intuitive level, this is something we take for granted--after all, if you had to assign damage for an effective block to occur, most 0/Xs with Defender would be awful cards .
At this time, no damage has been assigned.
Now we get to the assignment of damage. Damage will happen simultaneously. The "order" does not mean one assignment occurs before the other, it merely is allocation of how damage is dealt. Let's say Dan assigned to the 3/3 first, then the 5/5 the remaining 1 damage, and neither attacker has trample. What would happen would be: The Ceratops takes 7 damage simultaneously with the 3/3 taking 3 damage simultaneously with the 5/5 taking 1 damage.
There is now a round of priority. At the beginning of this priority, state-based actions will check, and any creatures with lethal damage marked on them will die (here it will be the Ceratops and the 33
(5) End of Combat Step
This is pretty simple, creatures will now be removed from combat, will no longer be considered "attacking" or "blocking" and "until end of combat" effects end.
There is no priority in this round.
That's a lot of information, but to sum it up:
Whether something is blocked or not is independent from the assignment of damage, and takes place at a different Step in the game. Even if no damage is assigned to a creature in the Combat Damage Step, that does not retroactively change the "blocked" designation set in the Declare Blockers Step.
Hopefully that helps clear things up for you.
February 23, 2019 12:26 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
Except for the fact that 5+3 is 8 not 7, cdkime's explanation is what I was trying to say earlier.
February 23, 2019 1:04 p.m.
Yikes! I was initially using a 2/2 as my example, so the assignment of damage from the Ceratops would be 3 and 1, rather than a more confusing 2 and 2. Seems I forgot to change some of the other numbers in my hasty revision. I promise I can (generally) do math!
February 23, 2019 1:20 p.m.
Thanks cdkime! Really appreciate the time you took to break it down for me! Makes sense now, that’s what Gidgetimer and Kogarashi was saying just in a more simplified way. Although now this poses another question in a different thread I posted with that last exchange of priority before damage is done.
PlatinumOne says... #1
all combat damage is dealt at the same time. all attackers will deal damage to Spike-Tailed Ceratops , and the controller of the Spike-Tailed Ceratops will decide how to assign their damage among the creatures it is blocking.
February 10, 2019 7:52 p.m.