How Dictate of Erebos interacts with negative counters

Asked by coreyhh90 2 years ago

Got into an argument with a friend over several interactions with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite which opened a bunch of arguments over different rules.

First off: If i have Dictate of Erebos in play, and he has Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in play, i cast Army of the Damned , do they "die" as required for Dictate of Erebos, or are they moved to the graveyard, and this considered a different effect. On another post someone said that "dying is when something is moved from the battlefield to the graveyard" which would cause Erebos to trigger, as seen here:

Secondly: If Elesh will kill a creature as it enters (through having <1 toughness) Does its ETB still trigger, and further to that, in the case of Prossh, Skyraider of Kher , could the player playing Prossh sacrifice the tokens to Prossh or something like Goblin Bombardment ?

Thanks in advance!

BlueScope says... Accepted answer #1

1st: Yes, dieing means being put in the graveyard from the battlefield. Those Zombies will die, and Dictate will trigger for each one.

2nd: Elesh Norn never applies its effect to creatures as they enter, only as soon as they're on the battlefield - immediately so, so they will never have their original toughness. What puts them in the graveyard, however, are stat-based actions, and ETB abilities trigger before those are checked. Players don't get to respond before those creatures leave the battlefield, though, as state-based actions are checked before anyone gets priority.

October 9, 2017 7:35 a.m.

BlueScope says... #2

Oh, I forgot to add that there are no counters involved anywhere here - Elesh Norn has a static ability, but no counters will be placed on the affected creatures at any time.

October 9, 2017 9:51 a.m.

coreyhh90 says... #3

Yeah, I said counters, but I just meant negatives. On a side note, if something is removed with negative counters instead of continuous negative stats, would that still trigger Dictate of Erebos ?

October 10, 2017 4:10 a.m.

Blo says... #4

Relevant definition for you perhaps:
700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.

Anything that does the above is considered as dying. Your opponent sacrificing a creature to [dictate of erebos] will also count as dying for example.

October 11, 2017 3:56 a.m.

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