How Dictate of Erebos interacts with negative counters

Asked by coreyhh90 2 years ago

Got into an argument with a friend over several interactions with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite which opened a bunch of arguments over different rules.

First off: If i have Dictate of Erebos in play, and he has Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in play, i cast Army of the Damned, do they "die" as required for Dictate of Erebos, or are they moved to the graveyard, and this considered a different effect. On another post someone said that "dying is when something is moved from the battlefield to the graveyard" which would cause Erebos to trigger, as seen here:

Secondly: If Elesh will kill a creature as it enters (through having <1 toughness) Does its ETB still trigger, and further to that, in the case of Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, could the player playing Prossh sacrifice the tokens to Prossh or something like Goblin Bombardment ?

Thanks in advance!

BlueScope says... Accepted answer #1

1st: Yes, dieing means being put in the graveyard from the battlefield. Those Zombies will die, and Dictate will trigger for each one.

2nd: Elesh Norn never applies its effect to creatures as they enter, only as soon as they're on the battlefield - immediately so, so they will never have their original toughness. What puts them in the graveyard, however, are stat-based actions, and ETB abilities trigger before those are checked. Players don't get to respond before those creatures leave the battlefield, though, as state-based actions are checked before anyone gets priority.

October 9, 2017 7:35 a.m.

BlueScope says... #2

Oh, I forgot to add that there are no counters involved anywhere here - Elesh Norn has a static ability, but no counters will be placed on the affected creatures at any time.

October 9, 2017 9:51 a.m.

coreyhh90 says... #3

Yeah, I said counters, but I just meant negatives. On a side note, if something is removed with negative counters instead of continuous negative stats, would that still trigger Dictate of Erebos ?

October 10, 2017 4:10 a.m.

Blo says... #4

Relevant definition for you perhaps:
700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.

Anything that does the above is considered as dying. Your opponent sacrificing a creature to [dictate of erebos] will also count as dying for example.

October 11, 2017 3:56 a.m.

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