Help with ruling on Liliana, Defiant Necromancer emblem and token creatures
Asked by turdsmcgee 4 years ago
The final ability states: You get an emblem with "Whenever a creature is put into the graveyard from the battlefield, return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step."
Does this work with token creatures? (In this case about a dozen 2/2 zombies.) I believe it should since it doesn't specify nontoken creature like the front of the card does, but it came up in an argument during a game yesterday.
Front of the card for reference: Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip
Thanks for any feedback!
turdsmcgee says... #2
Well it does say right in the rule that you referred to: Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.
This is essentially a triggered ability, even if it's from the emblem, right? And the triggered action should be immediate even though the creatures don't come back until the next end step...
I'm still not satisfied here, but thanks for the reply.
September 25, 2019 2:26 p.m.
Triggered abilities do not happen immediately - they are put on the stack. They still have to go through the process of resolving--which means rounds of priority, which, in turn, means state-based actions are checked before the triggered ability resolves.
The Parenthetical language is effectively the Rule's version of reminder text, to be clear that a token dying will still result in triggers occurring, such as "when a creature is put in the graveyard" triggers. It references all zones, because you could have a situation where a replacement effect, such as Rest in Peace , sends the creature card directly to Exile, which could result in a different set of triggers.
September 25, 2019 2:42 p.m. Edited.
turdsmcgee says... #4
"The Parenthetical language is effectively the Rule's version of reminder text, to be clear that a token dying will still result in triggers occurring, such as "when a creature is put in the graveyard" triggers."
The parenthetical is still part of the rule, right? (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
The creature tokens change zones (die, go to graveyard) and before they cease to exist the triggered ability applies...according to how this is worded in the rules.
I'm just not seeing clear proof that this card's wording vs. any rules about tokens are showing that it wouldn't work. Also wouldn't the card text override any other rules? It literally just says when a creature dies it comes back. Even though they are creature tokens, they still count as creatures.
September 26, 2019 10:18 a.m.
Yes, the ability triggers before the token ceases to exist.
But what happens is this:
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Your token creature dies. It is put in the graveyard from the battlefield.
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Liliana's emblem triggers.
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When a player would next receive priority, the trigger will be placed on the stack (1). However, state-based actions are checked first (2).
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State-based actions do not use the stack and are handled immediately. Because the token creature is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist due to state-based actions.
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Once all state-based actions are handled together and no more need to be performed, the triggered ability is finally put on the stack.
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When the triggered ability goes to resolve, the token creature no longer exists and cannot be returned to the battlefield, regardless of timing.
The important point is that triggered abilities do not resolve immediately, they go on the stack and wait their turn. So while the token dying will indeed trigger the emblem, the token will no longer exist by the time the trigger would return it.
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603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 117, “Timing and Priority.”
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704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated.
September 26, 2019 10:35 a.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #6
The reason for that parenthetical reference is to remind players that tokens don't cease to exist once they leave the battlefield. They still go to their intended destination and then cease to exist.
In MTG, a creature dying is the specific action of moving a creature from the battlefield to the graveyard. Tokens are not able to exist anywhere other than the battlefield, but if they were to cease to exist when they leave the battlefield, it would not count as dying (and thus not triggering any abilities that occur on the death of a creature).
When a token creature dies, it will hit the graveyard (due to the definition of dying) and the next time state-based actions are checked (which is before the next time a player receives priority) it will cease to exist.
That is why everything is as Caerwyn and Kogarashi explained.
September 26, 2019 3:04 p.m.
xenosapien says... #7
the "tl;dr" part of this is: it has to DIE to trigger Liliana's emblem.
Dying implies going to the graveyard - but tokens cease to exist once they get there, ergo cannot be brought back.
they are not CARDS, after all.
(please note: this is a very crude layman´s terms explanation I would use with my playgroup for example - please rever to Caerwyn and Kogarashi above for REAL explanations ;)
September 27, 2019 9:46 a.m.
In the future, please remember to hit the green “mark as answer” button to indicate your question has been resolved. Since since this question has been answered for a couple of days, I have gone ahead and marked an answer on your behalf.
September 30, 2019 9:51 a.m.
turdsmcgee says... #9
Kogarashi thanks for the break down - this is exactly what I was looking for.
Sorry I hadn't checked back on this right away.
Caerwyn says... #1
This will not work for tokens. When a Token is put into the graveyard, it ceases to exist as a state-based action. Liliana's emblem creates a triggered ability, which triggers upon a creature dying. There will always be a round of priority before a triggered ability resolves--at the beginning of the first round of priority after the creature dies (be it after the spell killing the creature resolves, or when an in-game event occurs, such as the combat damage step's priority round). At the beginning of that round of priority, the token will cease to exist. Thus, when Liliana's emblem's trigger resolves, the token no longer exists, and thus cannot be returned to the battlefield.
Here is the rule:
111.7. A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
September 25, 2019 12:34 p.m.