Helm of Obedience unknown infinite combo
Asked by chosenone124 7 years ago
Suppose my opponent has 8 cards in their deck and some number of cards exiled by Pyxis of Pandemonium.
I activate Helm of Obedience X=1 on them, and hit a Progenitus. Second time we hit a Blightsteel Colossus. After repeating this process 10 times, we hit only Progenitus and Blightsteel Colossus.
Is this considered an uncontrollable infinite loop? We don't know the contents of my opponent's library, so it's possible that we just happened to hit cards with replacement effects. But it is also possible that the only copies in the library are those two cards
chosenone124 says... #2
The Pyxis is just there so no one knows the contents of the library.
Helm mills until X cards have hit the graveyard or until a creature has hit the graveyard. Blightsteel Colossus and Progenitus cannot hit the graveyard. If you try, they reveal and shuffle into the deck
April 17, 2017 8:54 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #3
Replacement effects and Helm cause an infinite mill trigger (such as Leyline of the Void and Helm). Helm will mill until it detects a card hitting the graveyard. If a card doesn't hit the graveyard, it will happily pop cards off the library until one does or the library is empty
April 17, 2017 8:55 p.m.
From Helm of Obedience Gatherer:
- If an effect like that of Leyline of the Void prevents cards from being put into your opponents graveyard, the process described in the first sentence of Helm of Obediences effect will never stop. Your opponents entire library will be exiled, even if X is 1.
Whether or not this is an uncontrolled loop depends on a couple things I guess we have to know. Is Pyxis of Pandemonium already tapped? If there are any options available that can break the loop, they must be taken. Also, are Progenitus and Blightsteel Colossus the only creatures in the library (I suppose it would behoove your opponent to be honest about that at this point or the game ends in a draw)?
April 17, 2017 9 p.m.
lithium142 says... #5
gotcha.
You're right. It would create an infinite loop. However, it would be unending.
Unless you have a way to interrupt it, the game will end in a draw
April 17, 2017 9:10 p.m.
The loop cannot be broken, because no player receives priority between the steps in the loop. If your looking for a way to resolve this, it is perfectly reasonable to ignore the shuffling until after the milling is completed, as it doesn't actually change the probabilities. If the only contents of the library are those cards, then it is infinite, and unable to be interrupted, so the game is a draw.
April 17, 2017 9:11 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #7
Interesting, so although we technically have to shuffle in the cards and we can't confirm the contents of the library, this situation warrants not shuffling in Progenitus and co until after we are done milling
April 17, 2017 9:24 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #8
GearNoir I just have the Pyxis there to make it so neither player knows the contents of the library. Of the 8 cards, it is possible there are 7 shufflers and 1 Storm Crow or something, but due to the facedown exiles neither player actually knows what is there.
Since it is against the rules to look at your library or facedown exiled cards unless an effect allows you to, there could be an infinite uncontrollable loop but it is impossible to be sure unless the loop spontaneously ends.
April 17, 2017 9:29 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #9
By the way Neotrup, is that how they would resolve it in a tournament setting (hypothetically)? I find it hard to believe a Magic judge would say "screw shuffling it in, put it on the bottom and shuffle it later"
April 17, 2017 9:34 p.m.
I guess I still don't see how you are arriving at the conclusion Pyxis affects the library or the cards you have to put into the graveyard. Perhaps that's not what you are meaning. Pyxis only effects/hides the cards it has exiled, it does not affect the library or Helm's library card-to-graveyard placement in any other way that I see.
I also wonder how much fuss would be raised if the shuffle was skipped in a scenario where the library remaining was much more significant, you essentially get to see all of their deck and strategy.
April 17, 2017 10:12 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #11
I just have Pyxis to hide the card without either player knowing.
April 17, 2017 10:33 p.m.
I doubt a judge ever would encounter this in a tournament setting. Rhadamanthus would probably be the most qualified on this site to answer the question, and you can ask a certified judge in chat at http://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/
April 18, 2017 2:12 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #13
Neotrup Judge chat told me "call a judge". They also said the shortcut you mentioned would not be legal in a tournament setting. You can't take shortcuts unless you have a controlled loop with a specific number of iterations :(
April 18, 2017 10:11 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #15
The practical answer is that this has never actually happened, and never will happen. It's a pretty exceptional corner case combining some particularly unusual and unique cards. The "call a judge" answer you got from Judge chat is the most correct one.
A Judge responding to this call would definitely need to get the Head Judge of the event involved and they would have to make an on-the-spot call to decide the result. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to look through your opponents deck briefly to help make the decision. They key thing is whether they think the loop can be expected to end in a reasonably short number of iterations (you can't shortcut through it because it's not deterministic). If yes, they'll tell you to keep going. If no, they'll call the game a draw. Again, all this is up to their judgment in the moment and will be tailored to the specific situation.
April 18, 2017 10:36 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #16
Interesting. Since the draw would be issued both in the situation where we have an uncontrollable infinite loop and the situation where we have an large indeterminate number of iterations (ex 4 Progenitus, 4 Blightsteel, 3 Legacy Weapon, 1 Island), this would prevent me from gaining undue information about the library's contents/the decklist.
Thanks!
lithium142 says... #1
I'm confused about what you think is happening here. perhaps you could clarify what you mean? I'm also confused how Pyxis of Pandemonium ties into this.
regardless, Helm of Obedience requires mana to activate, so unless you have infinite mana, i dont see how it would go infinite. in addition, there's the problem of untapping it for multiple activations.
April 17, 2017 8:32 p.m.