Dictate of Erebos and destroy all permanents
Asked by ruswilsin 9 years ago
For example:Player 1 has Dictate of Erebos and creatures on board Player 2 uses a destroy all permanents board wipePlayer 3 has Avacyn, Angel of Hope on board.
Would dictate still trigger since the board wipe hits all of player 1 permanents at the same time so that player 3 has to sacrifice
nobu_the_bard says... #2
It is as Pro_Noob said. The triggers still work for Dictate of Erebos even though Dictate is also destroyed. Avacyn, Angel of Hope's controller still has to sacrifice 3 creatures.
You can link cards with syntax such as this, minus spaces: [ [ Dictate of Erebos ] ] -> Dictate of Erebos. It makes the post easier to read.
March 17, 2016 1:44 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #3
A "dies" trigger is a special kind of "leaves the battlefield" trigger, and all LTB triggers use information from the last moment something was on the battlefield to determine if and how they trigger. At the last moment all the creatures were on the battlefield, so was Dictate of Erebos, so it will trigger for the dying creatures.
March 17, 2016 1:53 p.m.
Perfect. Thanks everyone. I thought that was how it worked but I wanted to be sure. And also thanks for the syntax tip, haven't been on the site much so I forgot that was a thing.
March 17, 2016 3:40 p.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial says... #5
With Blood Artist it specifically says "if blood artist or another creature" not "if a creature". Because all of the permanents are destroyed at once, dictate would not get a chance to activate. While I'm not a certified judge, and have never been, I've been playing magic for several years, and have a very in depth understanding of the rules of the game, and am an honorary judge at my LGS and my school magic club, so I'm not clueless either. So no, they wouldn't sacrifice creatures. If it said destroy all creatures, they would trigger dictate because it would be on the board when the creatures die.
March 17, 2016 11:13 p.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial, I'm sorry man, but you're dead wrong.
It works exactly like Rhadamanthus, Pro_Noob, and nobu_the_bard said.
I don't feel like digging up all the relevant rules here, but if you really want me to I can take a dive through the comp rules.
March 17, 2016 11:23 p.m.
The specific wording on Blood Artist is actually just to cut down on player confusion. The ability would work exactly the same if it said "Whenever a creature dies"
March 17, 2016 11:25 p.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial says... #8
Okay, thank you for pointing out my error. Instances like this are what keeps me fresh on all the rules! Good luck with your killing of Avacyn.
March 17, 2016 11:28 p.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial says... #9
Oh I see, so while our, say, Planar Cleansing is on the stack, all of the events that trigger on Dictate of Erebos are initiated, because the creature would die if the spell resolves, so it checks to see if it's on track to resolve, and if it is, the trigger continues, then, Planar Cleansing resolves, and the creatures, and Dictate of Erebos are all destroyed, but the triggers are still on the stack from the activation of Planar Cleansing, and so once again it checks to see if the trigger requirements are true, and, they are, so the trigger resolves. Rule 603.4.
March 17, 2016 11:42 p.m.
Not really.
Effects in magic don't try to see the future. It's just that everything that got destroyed by Planar Cleansing left the battlefield at the same time, so they all "saw" each other leave, for lack of a better term. Since Dictate of Erebos was on the battlefield at the same time as X creatures died, X Dictate of Erebos triggers are waiting around to be put on the stack after all the permanents have been destroyed. Planar Cleansing finishes resolving. The game moves to give a player priority, so first it checks state based actions (shouldn't be any here), then it puts all of the Dictate triggers on the stack in the order their controller chooses for them (they're all the same so who cares), then the active player gets priority and can do stuff (only instant speed stuff in this case, but w/e).
March 17, 2016 11:53 p.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial says... #11
So what I was saying was that because of rule 603.4, the Dictate of Erebos trigger would check to see if all of the creatures are going to be destroyed, before Planar Cleansing resolves, because the resolution would cause that trigger, so it notices that the creature would die, and then when Planar Cleansing resolves, it checks once again, and for each trigger that sort of "resolved" in it's own trigger sense, would be put onto the actual responding stack, allowing for each trigger to be responded too, and once that resolves, all of the triggers would be completed, even if Dictate of Erebos is no longer on the field because it's triggers were initiated before the resolution of Planar Cleansing. Am I making any sense? I'm just trying to find a rule that supports the fact that it would trigger, because I do agree with you all.
March 18, 2016 midnight
The key thing here is really just that the "Destroy all non-land permanents" of Planar Cleansing is a single effect.
A good example where this wouldn't be the case would be Austere Command.
Let's say you have the same scenario as this question, but you played Austere Command and chose the second and third modes. In this case, the "destroy all enchantments," and "destroy all creatures with CMC 3 or less," are two separate effects that occur in the order they are printed on the card. When AC resolves, first all enchantments are destroyed, so Dictate of Erebos is put in the graveyard, then all CMC 3 or less creatures are destroyed, but at that point DoE has left the battlefield and isn't around to trigger off of their deaths.
March 18, 2016 12:02 a.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial says... #13
yes, but because Planar Cleansing is a singular effect, it checks before it resolves to see if the statement is true, and it checks after the statement resolves to see if the statement is still true, and if it is, the trigger would resolve regardless of whether or not Dictate of Erebos is still on the field because the trigger would be activated before it leaves.
March 18, 2016 12:05 a.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial you're displaying a fundemental misunderstanding of how this game treats triggers and the resolution of spells and abilities.
This is more than I can explain right now. If your want to clarify this for yourself, I suggest just reading the comp rules sections on these subjects in order.
March 18, 2016 12:06 a.m.
Also, triggers aren't activated. Activated abilities are activated.
March 18, 2016 12:07 a.m.
VaraSatoshiOfficial says... #16
http://magiccards.info/rule/603-handling-triggered-abilities.html
Everything I've been saying for the past few posts I've been trying to comprehend from tule 603.4.
Perhaps I'm just tired and need some sleep, because it is kind of late, and I haven't ever gotten this in depth about the order of triggers before. Haha. Have a good night/day.
March 18, 2016 12:10 a.m.
All permanents that leave or enter play at the same time see all others that do so and all appropriate triggered abilities are triggered even if the card with the ability is no longer in play.
March 18, 2016 12:46 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
As sonnet666 explained, effects in Magic don't look ahead. They don't try to predict things that might happen because there are countless responses and replacement effects that could interfere with the accuracy of such a prediction.
Instead, things just resolve in order, and checks are performed only as necessary.
Planar Cleansing does not perform any checks whatsoever. It just destroys all nonland permanents. Cards do only what they say, no more, no less.
Dictate of Erebos's ability triggers for each creature you control that was destroyed. Rhadamanthus & co. gave the correct explanation for why.
Triggered abilities trigger when their conditions are met, not because of external checks. Dictate of Erebos's ability triggers whenever a creature you control dies. Planar Cleansing doesn't do anything on its behalf; it only destroys things, potentially creating a trigger event.
Owlteeth says... #1
I'm gonna go with yes. They all get destroyed at the same time, so anything like dictate will trigger before it is destroyed. It's kinda like how Blood Artist can trigger himself. He gets destroyed but his ability still activates because he was on board when he got destroyed. That's how I understand it at least.
March 17, 2016 1:40 p.m.