Counters
Asked by CW 11 years ago
Can a Counterspell counter itself?
I've pulled this once to finish an opponent off during a casual game using Kiln Fiend and I was curious if it was even legal
For you to cast Counterspell a legal target must exist, in this case a spell on the stack. As Counterspell isn't on the stack, at the time you want to cast it, you aren't able to target it, and thus can't cast it.
However, if you play a Counterspell targeting something else, it's perfectly legal to Redirect it onto itself.
October 29, 2013 5:53 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #4
TitansFTW and Dallie have the correct answers, but for the wrong reasons.
First, a spell is put onto the stack immediately after it is announced.
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
This means the spell is on the stack at the time targets must be selected. The reason Counterspell can't target itself is actually rule 114.4.
114.4. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.
October 29, 2013 6:11 p.m.
Specific ruling then huh, oh well its all the same, Thanks.
October 29, 2013 6:13 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@Dallie: You can't redirect a Counterspell (or any other spell) to itself, per 114.4.
October 29, 2013 6:16 p.m.
@Epochalyptik: Right, I think I got it confused sometime back when that dual cast deck was huge on the front page.
October 29, 2013 6:22 p.m.
smash10101 says... #8
you can Reverberate a Counterspell to target itself, but to counter a Counterspell with Redirect you need a spell between the Counterspell and Redirect that you don't care about. And to answer the original question, a spell doesn't need to resolve to trigger Kiln Fiend , so you could cast a Lightning Bolt or something and then counter it to get your +6/+0
October 29, 2013 6:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
@smash10101: A spell or ability can never target itself. You can also counter a Counterspell using only a Redirect if you redirect the Counterspell to Redirect itself.
October 29, 2013 7:01 p.m.
@smash10101, that wasn't the question, I didn't have any more spells to counter so I just went for the Counterspell , which was an illegal move so I guess I lost by default.
October 29, 2013 7:07 p.m.
smash10101 says... #11
@Epochalyptik: I never said that you targeted a spell with itself, I meant that the copy would target the original. Also, can you choose the spell that is resolving as the target? I guess it would still be on the stack since it hasn't finished resolving yet, so it could make sense.
@CW: I know that wasn't the exact question, I was just offering a related way to use the spells in question for the desired effect.
October 29, 2013 7:13 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@smash10101: You were unclear about that, so I thought I would make sure the ruling was clear. And yes, a spell remains on the stack until the final stage of its resolution. You can redirect a counterspell to target Redirect because Redirect is still on the stack when you reselect the targets for the targeted spell.
megawurmple says... #1
No, for many reasons.
First, targets are chosen for a spell before it goes on the stack. Therefore, Counterspell cannot target itself as it isn't there to target when targets are chosen.
Secondly, a counter spell needs to resolve in order to work, and works by stopping the targeted spell from resolving. Therefore, when Counterspell would resolve and try and counter itself, it would already have resolved. This creates some kind of bizarre and awkward paradox.
There are probably more reasons, but if you use common sense you can easily realise that it doesn't work.
October 29, 2013 5:53 p.m.