Clarification on Underdark Rift
Asked by CamraMaan 1 year ago
To use Underdark Rift you pay 5cc, tap it, then exile it. This is when the ability goes on the stack, correct? Then after it is allowed to resolve I would roll the d10, see its result, then choose the target creature...? I'm mostly curious about when the targeting occurs, as getting to choose your target after knowing the result could change things depending on how many threats are worth removing, and how long they would be removed. Thanks in advance! :)
Gidgetimer says... #2
To be super clear on when exactly objects go on the stack, the way you "declare that you're doing something" in legendofa's streamlined order is by putting it on the stack. The very first step of casting a spell or activating an ability is to put it on the stack.
July 23, 2022 9:31 a.m.
So I guess that's where I'm confused... I thought the part before the colon was the activation cost, and once it's paid it goes on the stack. Then people respond, then the portion following the colon proceeds. But you're saying I pay the costs and roll the d10, and choose the targets before anyone can respond...? Before it goes on the stack...?
July 23, 2022 6:13 p.m.
And to be clear, by the list provided by legendofa, #4: paying the costs, is what happens before the colon. #5: see if anyone responds. #6: do what happens after the colon. No...? And per the card, you choose targets after rolling the d10... no?
July 23, 2022 6:18 p.m.
You will choose the targets as part of putting the ability on the stack, but you'll roll after it begins resolving. So everyone will know the target, but not the result when you activate Underdark Rift.
Ruling on Underdark Rift's Scryfall page (https://scryfall.com/card/afc/62/underdark-rift) that may help:
An effect that says “choose a target, then roll a d20” or similar still uses the normal process of putting an ability on the stack and resolving it. Choosing targets is part of putting the ability on the stack and rolling the d20 happens later, as the ability resolves. (2021-07-23)
July 23, 2022 7:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #6
I'm not a huge fan of linking the entirety of CR 601.2, but this may be a case where the exact process for casting spells (and activating abilities) is necessary. The complete and unstreamlined process for casting a spell is
- Announce the spell and put it on the stack
- Make all choices on modes/alternate costs/etc.
- Choose targets
- Choose how to divide any part of the effect that requires the player to distribute something.
- Game checks to make sure spell can be legally cast with the choses made so far.
- Total cost is determined.
- If cost requires mana, mana abilities can be activated.
- Costs are paid.
- Modifications to the spell/ability take effect and triggers from cast/activation trigger.
- As many rounds of priority as are necessary until the spell/ability is the topmost object of the stack and it can resolve happen.
- The effects of the spell/ability happen. Instructions are followed in order as they appear on the card. Later parts of the spell/ability can modify earlier parts, so the entire thing is read and applies logically.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a–d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f–h). To cast a spell, a player follows the steps listed below, in order. A player must be legally allowed to cast the spell to begin this process (see rule 601.3). If a player is unable to comply with the requirements of a step listed below while performing that step, the casting of the spell is illegal ; the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 727, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it resolves, it’s countered, or a rule or effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2b If the spell is modal, the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.47), they reveal those cards in their hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as buyback or kicker costs (see rules 118.8 and 118.9), the player announces their intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2f). A player can’t apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If the value of that variable is defined in the text of the spell by a choice that player would make later in the announcement or resolution of the spell, that player makes that choice at this time instead of that later time. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost they intend to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether they intend to pay 2 life or a corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s options when making these choices.
601.2c The player announces their choice of an appropriate object or player for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a kicker cost) or a particular mode was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. Similarly, a spell may require alternative targets only if an alternative or additional cost was chosen for it. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets they will choose before they announce those targets. In some cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spell’s text. Once the number of targets the spell has is determined, that number doesn’t change, even if the information used to determine the number of targets does. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that they obey the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can’t be chosen as a target. The chosen objects and/or players each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those objects and/or players become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they’ll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.) Example: If a spell says “Tap two target creatures,” then the same creature can’t be chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says “Destroy target artifact and target land,” however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word “target” in multiple places.
601.2d If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.
601.2e The game checks to see if the proposed spell can legally be cast. If the proposed spell is illegal, the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 727, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
601.2h The player pays the total cost. First, they pay all costs that don’t involve random elements or moving objects from the library to a public zone, in any order. Then they pay all remaining costs in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can’t be paid. Example: You cast Altar’s Reap, which costs {1}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to cast. Because a spell’s total cost is “locked in” before payments are actually made, you pay {B}, not {1}{B}, even though you’re sacrificing the Familiar.
601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed, effects that modify the characteristics of the spell as it’s cast are applied, then the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, they get priority.
602.2. To activate an ability is to put it onto the stack and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Only an object’s controller (or its owner, if it doesn’t have a controller) can activate its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise. Activating an ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the activation of an ability, a player is unable to comply with any of those steps, the activation is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that ability started to be activated (see rule 727, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.
602.2a The player announces that they are activating the ability. If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. That ability is created on the stack as an object that’s not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who activated the ability. The ability remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
602.2b The remainder of the process for activating an ability is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2b–i. Those rules apply to activating an ability just as they apply to casting a spell. An activated ability’s analog to a spell’s mana cost (as referenced in rule 601.2f) is its activation cost.
July 23, 2022 8:41 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
TL;DR: You will:
Choose targets
Pay Tap and sacrifice Underdark Rift
Wait until the ability resolves
Roll a d10 and put the target under the top that many cards.
legendofa says... #1
You actually choose targets before you pay costs. So everyone knows which permanent is being targeted by Underdark Rift before you start tapping and exiling.
The streamlined order of actions for casting a spell or activating an ability is:
Declare that you're doing something
Choose targets
Calculate costs, including additional costs, alternate costs, and cost reductions
Pay costs
See if anyone has a response
Do the thing you wanted to do.
July 23, 2022 8:21 a.m.