Can you return multiple creatures to hand with a single Ninjutsu card?
Asked by Chaospyke 2 years ago
If I have 2 attacking, unblocked creatures. Can I use a Ninjutsu from one card to return them both to hand.
The full cost of Ninjutsu is "Mana cost, return a creature, reveal this card"
Store owner said I can't reveal an already revealed card, and thus can't pay the cost again, but I can't find any ruling that says that.
Only rule that is close to that is :103.5b If a card allows a player to reveal it from their opening hand, the player taking this action does so. The card remains revealed until the first turn begins. Each card may be revealed this way only once.
Ninjutsu is a cool ability that messes with the typical rules of magic in some ways, but the spirit of it is that the unblocked attacker is really a ninja in disguise! While I do commend some creative thinking on how to abuse the mechanic, Polaris is right!
February 27, 2022 6:35 p.m.
There isn't anything I can find that says revealed cards can't be revealed again, even to pay a cost. I'm also not finding anything in the rules that prevent you from actually activating the ninjutsu ability of a creature that's already revealed as the source of a ninjutsu ability. You'd of course have to pay the mana cost and return another creature, but you should be able to reveal cards that are already revealed, so there shouldn't be anything stopping you from paying that part of the cost. That said, there shouldn't be much reason to return a second creature, as you can't put the same creature in twice.
February 28, 2022 2:30 a.m.
Where in that rule does it say I can't reveal a revealed card? Yes its revealed and stays that way, but by that logic, if my opponent plays Telepathy then I wouldn't be able to play any ninjutsu cards because they are already revealed.
March 2, 2022 11:02 a.m.
I'm honestly not 100% sure. I did tweet the question to Matt Tabak, so we'll see if he gets back to us.
March 2, 2022 1:24 p.m.
I know Gavin Verhey from wizards recently did a whole podcast on all the shenanigans that can be done with ninjutsu. It might be worth watching for any who are interested.
March 2, 2022 2:42 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
"Revealed" isn't a status like tapped/untapped or face-up/face-down. The way the action is described in the Glossary and 701.16a sounds as if there shouldn't be a problem revealing a card that's already being revealed for another reason. Polaris, I'm interested to see what the response from Matt Tabak is.
March 2, 2022 2:53 p.m.
You can return multiple creatures with ninjitsu. You could return all of your attacking creatures if you wanted and had enough mana for that many activations.
You reveal your ninja as part of the cost for activating the ability. Then your ability goes on the stack. You need to keep it revealed until the ability resolves. When you activate the ability multiple times, revealing the card is satisfied because its current state is "revealed". It is exactly like when an ability cost includes "Tap target creature". If you activate the ability multiple times, even if the creature is already tapped, the cost is still satisifed because the creature's state is "tapped". Nowhere does the ninjitsu ability include: Reveal only an unrevealed creature.
If you hold priority and activate it a 2nd time you just note it is revealed satisfying the requirement and put the ability on the stack. You can do this as many times as you want to. Once you decide to stop doing it, they resolve last in and first out. So say you activate it 3 times. When the last activation resolves first, it will put the 3rd targeted unblocked attacker in your hand and place the ninja on the battlefield tapped and attacking. As part of the ability, returning the creature to hand is an effect that occurs unrelated to when you put into play your ninja. Then you resolve the 2nd activation, it puts the 2nd targeted unblocked attacker in your hand, is unable to place the ninja on the battlefield so doesnt and finishes resolving. Then your 1st activation resolves putting the 1st targeted unblocked attacker in your hand, is unable to place the ninja on the battlefield so doesnt and finishes resolving.
March 2, 2022 4:26 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
MagicMarc: For your "tap" example, you're thinking about a situation where an effect tries to tap something that's already tapped. In that case the effect just skips the impossible action and moves on. A permanent that's already tapped can't be tapped again to pay a cost (otherwise, Prodigal Sorcerer says "win the game"). The detailed rules for tapping and untapping cover this:
701.21. Tap and Untap
701.21a To tap a permanent, turn it sideways from an upright position. Only untapped permanents can be tapped.
701.21b To untap a permanent, rotate it back to the upright position from a sideways position. Only tapped permanents can be untapped.
March 3, 2022 10:03 a.m.
Rhadamanthus, I'm inclined to think you're correct about revealing as a cost. I was originally comparing "revealed" to things like "tapped" because it's being used as a cost, but it's also true that if this were the case things like Telepathy would incidentally break every card-revealing cost. It's a little annoying that the comprehensive rules doesn't specifically cover this interaction but you're correct, there's nothing in there that prohibits it.
March 4, 2022 11:19 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
In the absence of any "Official" resolution, I marked what feels to be the consensus answer here as the "Accepted answer" so this topic can move out of the list of unanswered questions. It can be updated if someone comes along with compelling new information and/or confirmation of a different result.
Polaris says... #1
Your store owner is correct. The general rule for revealing a card is that once a card is revealed, it remains revealed until the effect it's being revealed for is done. See Rule 701:
701.16a To reveal a card, show that card to all players for a brief time. If an effect causes a card to be revealed, it remains revealed for as long as necessary to complete the parts of the effect that card is relevant to. If the cost to cast a spell or activate an ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until the time it leaves the stack.
See also the relevant rules for Ninjutsu in Rule 702.
702.49a Ninjutsu is an activated ability that functions only while the card with ninjutsu is in a player’s hand. “Ninjutsu [cost]” means “[Cost], Reveal this card from your hand, Return an unblocked attacking creature you control to its owner’s hand: Put this card onto the battlefield from your hand tapped and attacking.” 702.49b The card with ninjutsu remains revealed from the time the ability is announced until the ability leaves the stack.
February 27, 2022 6:24 p.m.