Can tokens or card copies be moved between multiple zones before state-based actions are checked?
Asked by Yesterday 3 years ago
TLDR - Why doesn't The Grand Tour work on tokens?
I'm aware this is really long-winded, sorry, I'm really tired and have been drinking a lot of coffee.
So, I just discovered that casting Mizzix's Mastery does in fact trigger Prosper, Tome-Bound's Pact Boon ability, as the copies of the exiled cards are also created in exile.
706.12 An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then cast while another spell or ability is resolving. Casting a copy of an object follows steps 601.2a–h of rule 601, “Casting Spells,” and then the copy becomes cast. Once cast, the copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it can resolve or be countered.
I had incorrectly assumed that the card copies wouldn't be created in exile because card copies in exile cease existing as soon as State-Based Actions are checked. But SBAs aren't checked in the middle of the resolution of a spell, so there's no contradiction.
Also, tokens do go to the graveyard before they cease to exist, otherwise they wouldn't trigger death triggers.
So... tokens and card copies can exist in zones other than the battlefield and the stack, as long as SBAs haven't yet been checked, right?
So, an enchantment with the text "Whenever a creature token you control dies, return it to the battlefield under you control" wouldn't work because the token would cease to exist by the time the triggered ability would resolve.
However, and enchantment with the text "If a creature token you control would die; instead it dies, then return it to the battlefield under your control," however stupidly worded, would work, right?
If not, why? And do the rules for tokens and card copies differ in this regard?
The Grand Tour's gatherer notes specify that "If the target permanent is a token, it stops at exile. It doesn’t move to any of the other zones or return to the battlefield. It does not pass Go. It does not collect two hundred mana."
Why? And if, for some god-forsaken reason, a similar card with the text "Exile target spell on the stack that's a card copy, then put it into its owner's hand. That player discards that card, then puts it on top of their library. Then they put it onto the stack. You may choose new targets for the spell" existed, would that work?
thx
That does perfectly answer a large portion of my question, thanks.
Do similar rules apply to card copies? At least with Mizzix's Mastery, they're shown to be able to move between exile and the stack.
October 1, 2021 9:56 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #3
Think about it this way, a token of sth is not a card. Whenever the game would require it to become a card, it can't comply and thus ceases to exist.
Things like Isochron Scepter can put copies on the stack since it has copied castable properties of said card. Note that the zone change of the copied card/spell wouldn't require a move into a zone they couldn't exist in (see my first answer).
I think one of the reasons the rules handle "cast from exile" by creating copies and not casting the OG card is because that would go to the grave and be much stronger in effect.
Ultimately copied spells and tokens are not the same kind of thing either.
October 1, 2021 10:17 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
Side note: The copies created by Mizzix's Mastery aren't "cards". Being a card (or a token) is a physical property of an object, not a copiable value. Casting the copies won't trigger Prosper, Tome-Bound's Pact Boon ability.
October 1, 2021 3:33 p.m.
@sergiodelrio, right, but copies of cards/spells on the stack aren't tokens. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it looks like 706.12 that I quoted in my OP specifically does say that the copied card is cast, and then the copy becomes a spell on the stack, IE. it has moved zones. Is there a specific ruling that states that copies of cards cannot move between zones?
@Rhadamanthus, lolffs didn't notice Prosper specified 'play a card'. Kk.
October 1, 2021 4:12 p.m. Edited.
sergiodelrio says... Accepted answer #6
There is not, I believe. The only reasonable zone a copy can move to, however, is from anywhere to the stack (after casting). Moving a copy from exile to the GY or to hand will do nothing obviously.
Additionaly, as far as I know copies are completely intangible when they are created. Only when they are cast and go on the stack as spells they can otherwise be interacted with.
October 1, 2021 6:02 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #7
Maybe this rule clears it up:
707.10a If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist. These are state-based actions. See rule 704
That means as soon as you choose to not cast a copy after you get the 'you may cast the copy' instruction, the copy vanishes the next time state based actions are checked and no one gets a chance to otherwise interact with it
October 2, 2021 6:08 a.m.
Thanks very much!
I wouldn't have actually been expecting to use existing cards to be able to pull a card copy from anywhere in the middle of the resolution of the thing that created it. This was all hypothetical stuff to help me understand better.
sergiodelrio says... #1
Non-Card objects that want to move to a different zone they couldn't exist in, cease to exist.
111.7. A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
111.8. A token that has left the battlefield can’t move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
October 1, 2021 9:53 a.m.