Arena: Complaints, Players, and the Community
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Posted on July 26, 2021, 3:26 p.m. by defamagraphy1
So I'm quite sure a lot of players have had similar experiences with Arena, and I would like to discuss some issues as well as some complaints and etiquette in what some would call "competitive" Magic.
I'm quite frankly not sure what to make of Arena, I like playing because it's direct access to other players when its more difficult to get to your LGS, I also like that the cards are more easily obtainable and the fact that you can play the pseudo modern Historic format.
However, and I'm not quite sure if some players are aware, but their are certain things you should and shouldn't do in MTG, and Arena kind of ignores that fact.
My number one complaint are in fact the players. If we really are a community as said why would you as a player treat other players as such?
It truly sucks that there's 0 communication on a web app and that there is an inability to teach new players on their misplays. In short Arena is NOT for new players. Nor is it really a place to brag and post that your deck is good.
Though it's a minor complaint, player screen names are questionable. If you could have a screen name in paper magic, some of the choices that players have made are enough to get a player disqualified from a tournament. Same goes with spamming your go, good game, and oops. Just because you see a popular you tube player doing it, doesn't mean you should follow suit, and the way players abuse it is enough for me to call a judge and get you disqualified, same with an lgs, I would make a complaint, and if it persisted enough, I'm sure your lgs would make it to where you couldn't play anymore. So don't do it. Be a better player.
Secondly, the shuffler is a huge issue, though Wizards claims it is not. It truly is. In all my years of playing Magic, the frequency of 3 of's, or two land hands in a deck with 26 lands is ridiculous. It doesn't have anything to do with skill, or a better build, or even being a pro player, if you played a deck in Arena and then brought it to paper, it WILL absolutely not play the same.
Even though it is a strategy, building annoying decks are not fun. I have quit many games out of principle when I'm still sitting at 22 life and my opponent hasn't done anything but make me discard my hand. Also, building a 256 card deck cause you're afraid to be milled isn't a strategy either. Yes your deck works on Arena, it won't in paper.
Arena cards should not be available in ranked play, I feel like the rule of thumb should be. If it's not paper standard legal, it's not Arena legal.
Ranked is not the place to try a the new control deck you've never played.
Nor it is acceptable for players to run up timers because they are losing.
So has anyone else had similar experiences? What are your thoughts? Can we get Wizards to fix the shuffler? Should their be consequences for unsportsmanlike conduct? What do you guys think?
defamagraphy1 says... #3
I guess I never thought of it that way. It just feels odd, and a lot of times I'm cursing myself for not taking the mulligan on the other hand, you adjust to it as well. It just doesn't feel the same as paper, or maybe it's the human experience of shuffling that feels different.
July 26, 2021 3:42 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #4
And I don't think mute is acceptable, it should be you can't play anymore but I think it's once again the human interaction that is lacking. Face to face you'd treat another player differently
July 26, 2021 3:44 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #5
Some points I agree with some I strongly disagree with.
1) you will strongly regret asking for a chat system or a way to communicate with other players.
As an avid hearthstone player I can assure you 9/10 times if someone adds you it's to tell you that "you're a brain dead ape" because you either destroyed them or they beat you. The other 10% of the time it's to tell you good game or ask for the tech. Also, blizzard doesn't take harrassment complaints seriously unless it's from a big streamer/content creator and if a company bigger than wizards cannot keep its' toxic community in check I doubt wizards would do much better.
2) I agree that players should have better etiquette on an online space but I have sort of given up on that. I was an admin on a Rust server for a bit and trust me people are garbage when they're anonymous and free of consequence.
3) never ran into a shuffling issue. Most of my games have felt very similar to paper or better.
4) As a lantern player hard disagree - annoying decks that warp the game into a war of attrition as opposed to whatever combo mess/agro plan people are on is so satisfying. If I'm in a tournment or on the ladder I'll play whatever I find to be the most enjoyable - if I'm sitting down with friends I'll adjust but if any money or prizes are on the line I'll play whatever I feel is best not what others consider "fun"
5) if you're talking about the new arena exclusives, card games have been doing this since the 90s. Granted, I don't like this move but it was destined to be the next step. They killed pioneer and needed something to make historic feel more like it's own format and not just some bastard mesh of standard and modern.
6) people can play whatever they want I just wouldn't advise playing a deck you're unfamiliar with and risking your rank - though the only way to get experience is through playing and perhaps having something on the line is insensitive to think a tad more about plays
7) roping is a jerk move but we cannot ever be sure if a person has the best internet connection
July 26, 2021 4:13 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #6
I don't think any of these complaints are invalid, but sadly, they're more or less integral to the game and its client; I don't think they could be truly "solved" without messing other things up.
July 26, 2021 4:33 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #7
I’m sometimes surprised by some of the names too (mine is pretty boring, say hello if you see FormOverFunction!). The shuffling seems seriously consistent, yes, but it’s really hard to say for me... but it seems a little too-perfect ;p Lastly, I 100% agree with RNR_Gaming about the chat feature. There isn’t nothing as important to me than the social aspect of M:tG but man-oh-man are anonymous internet windows bad news.
July 26, 2021 7:58 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #8
I think ranked is definitely the place to play the untested deck, be it control or another archetype. If they wanna give me easy ranked wins then im all for it lol. You can also mute players who spam emotes. A chat would just enable toxicity.
July 26, 2021 9:15 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #9
I'm definitely biased, coming from the era of original Xbox Live and old-school MMOs, but I would be all for a chat so long as it allowed muting.
However, if the chat was being policed (which it probably would be), it's better left off the platform IMO.
July 26, 2021 9:53 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #10
i do however agree with the shuffling issue because it's not uncommon for me to have the game in the bag, and then slowly lose my advantage as i draw lands for 5 turns. in a deck with 20 lands.
July 26, 2021 11:24 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #11
I've seen more Sultai Yorion lists cast 4 Cultivates before turn 6 than I have seen the deck open anything else. In an 80 card deck. 4-ofs before 15 cards seen. Empty out my opponent's hand, thinking I got it, then they go, from the top: Epiphany, Epiphany, Ultimatum. Not once, but three times a day. The shuffler really isn't that fine.
I used Arena to bridge the gap covid left for in-store play, and I like testing new deck ideas for as far as my wildcards go (which isn't that far in free2play, really) but now that my LGS is reinstating its schedule, I do hope I can get by with as little MTG Arena as possible, as the playing experience is vastly different, and imho, worse than paper magic has ever treated me. I guess it's great to grind a lot of games, but a mostly casual Timmy like me, has a more difficult time enjoying it.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
July 27, 2021 8:44 a.m.
The single biggest problem with Arena, in my opinion, is the incredibly long slow play timer. Back when I played Arena, I had far too many games where individuals simply chose to go AFK, hoping that I would get frustrated and conceded during the absurd wait before they forfeited.
I also have some issues with players who conceded 30 seconds before the game ends - due to the daily challenge system, it’s a bit of a common courtesy to just let the other player kill you. You never know if they have an attack/do damage/etc. daily they are trying to do.
Lastly, the way they have set up deck building with the wildcards encourages players to net deck - after all, why burn your wildcards on a beta test of a deck, when you can use them on something that you know will win? I found this led to a rather repetitive play environment.
July 27, 2021 9:04 a.m.
JANKYARD_DOG says... #13
Is it me or can people try lagging you out by highlighting every card on the battlefield while you're taking your turn? Or spamming 'Your Go' or 'Hello' during your turn... things lock up then all of a sudden 'Time Out Used' 'Opponents Turn' and you didn't even get through the M1.
July 27, 2021 2:01 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #14
JANKYARD_DOG - that's either a computer issue or a connectivity issue. Sure, the client may have bugs but if something like that existed A TON of people would abuse it for easy packs/ladder climbing and we'd probably have a trending reddit post and all the streamers/content creators making noise about it.
July 27, 2021 8:52 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #15
i disagree that it's a courtesy to let someone finish their dailies. i'm trying to climb ranked, i dont want to help my competition. i also disagree that wild cards incentivize netdecking. in fact it actually incentivizes brewing because the card is free. without wild cards there'd be way less freedom to actually play what you want.
July 28, 2021 12:18 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #16
I mean, it's a freemium platform; people are going to play the best decks that they can, in general. Even speaking as a terminal brewer, I think netdecking is to be expected and shouldn't be considered a problem unless the format's needing bans to begin with.
July 28, 2021 1:13 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #17
That seems fairly unlikely. I rarely play against Sultai Ultimatum in either standard or Historic. Even when I do, they often stall out because their hand is entirely ramp and they draw nothing to play, or the opposite with lots to play and no ramp. (I know because I play Thoughtseize).
This is all anecdotal of course, and completely irrelevant. My experiences don’t invalidate yours, and vice versa. But that’s why it’s irrelevant. We all have different experiences. What does MTGA gain from your opponent ripping the perfect cards while you draw lands? Nothing. It just drives one half of the players away from the game. It’s not rigged, it’s just random.
Like I said earlier, when you play more magic (you can’t deny arena makes it easier to play, and allows for significantly more games/matches per week). When you play more, the bad stuff happens more. But so does the good stuff.
July 28, 2021 2:12 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #18
Daveslab2022: they're not the only ones with issues though, and you don't even know how much they play on arena. the issue isn't "people play a lot, so they have bad games a lot". the issue is the percentage of times where this sort of thing happens, and it's a lot. i basically only play enough games to finish the dailies because the shuffler makes them take twice as long as they should.
July 28, 2021 2:20 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #19
Does the shuffler really make them take twice as long? How would you know? You’ve never had daily MTG challenges anywhere except Arena, where the shuffler has always existed.
I play arena a lot. Like, a lot. I played 15 matches of Historic yesterday and I’ve done two quick drafts of AFR today.
I understand that some people are upset because they feel they draw more bad hands than they would if it were in paper. But that doesn’t mean that the shuffler is rigged. A lot of people are crying that the 2020 election was rigged, but that doesn’t make it true. I don’t mean to bring politics into it, but that’s a prime example and the best I could think of.
I play 5 color niv. 27 land deck. Do you know how many times I had to mulligan due to only have 2 lands? About 33% of the time. I played 15 matches, and most of them went to g3 so probably around 35-40 games total. I went down to 5 like 4 times. If I played 40 games of paper magic, which I have before (been to several SCG Open events), my mulligan ratio would be similar.
Magic is a complex game. There are a lot of decisions to make and it’s easy to blame the game for poor decisions. I make them all the time. It happens.
July 28, 2021 2:29 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #21
Daveslab2022 i know because if i take out the games where i get way too many or way too few lands, i could finish my dailies in half the time. If anything, a 33% rate of getting 2 or less lands in your opening from a deck with 27 lands just proves my point. Im not “making mistakes and blaming the game”. Again, i’ll frequently draw 5 lands in a row in a deck with 20 lands. Even after casting multiple Cultivate . Are you saying i should run less?
July 28, 2021 5:10 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #22
We remember bad beats more than good ones, which leads to them feeling overrepresented. If the problem seems that persistent for you, it would be worth recording your games and running the math of the course of a lot of games to determine if there are actual statistical anomalies - but with a game like MtGA, Occam's razor probably rings true. What would the point be? And how would it function? What would cause you to specifically draw lands, especially when it's only at certain points in the game? If it was an issue, wouldn't it happen all the time - and if not, why, and what might trigger it? I've flooded plenty of times. You can watch people flood with legacy delver, even. If you play enough, it's going to happen.
And on the flip side, if there really is an issue, having data to back it up is exactly the sort of ammo you'd need to get it fixed.
July 28, 2021 5:55 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #23
I realize my last comment might have seemed hostile but I truly didn’t mean it that way. Drawing 4 lands in a row isn’t a mistake and can’t really be fixed in any way, so I apologize for my insinuation.
As far as your comment, I’ll quote you so you know directly which part I’m responding too
“ i know because if i take out the games where i get way too many or way too few lands, i could finish my dailies in half the time.”
Do you draw the exact perfect number of lands when you play paper magic? No, you don’t. Sometimes maybe, but typically no. That’s not how randomness works.
You do realize that you are advocating for WOTC to purposely rig the shuffler just so you draw less lands?? You’re asking for the opposite of what you want.
In magic, sometimes you draw too many lands. Sometimes you draw too few. I played 16 land Boss Sligh in KTK standard and would still flood out occasionally. It just happens.
July 28, 2021 6:52 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #24
Daveslab2022: if you still dont get it after this final message then idk what to tell you. Im not “asking for the opposite” of what i want. What i want is for the shuffler to actually be randomised because right now, you simply cannot convince me it is. The % of games where i get too few or too many lands in arena is drastically higher than the % of games it happens it happens in paper. It really is.
July 28, 2021 7:13 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #25
I’m sorry you feel that way, but such is the essence of true randomness.
Your 60 card magic deck has over 1,400,000,000,000,000 possible combinations. There is no way that you can expect any degree of certainty as to number of anything you’ll draw. Ever. Every time you shuffle your deck and draw a new hand of magic, your deck has never been in that exact configuration, ever. So to say that it’s not random because you feel a certain way doesn’t mean anything. Feelings aren’t facts.
July 28, 2021 7:27 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #26
If there is an issue, we need hard evidence, too. The infamous MTGO shuffler "bug" has never been proven to be a thing, and that's something relatively well-known - whereas I've literally never heard of an issue (outside of this thread) for Arena.
How would it function and why would it be intermittent? If it's on purpose, why would they do that, and do you see the same thing happen to opponents? If it's accidental, why isn't it consistent to any particular situation?
July 28, 2021 8:15 p.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #27
Daveslab2022 im not using feeings, you are. I know my own experiences better than you. Theres a reason i give my arena decks less lands than i would in paper, and it works in a way that wouldnt work in paper. The fact of the matter is the the shuffler algorithm gives extra weight to lands. To say it “is” random because you feel a certain way doesnt mean anything
July 28, 2021 9:05 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #28
RaidenShogun69 Dude you are using your own personal feelings. You feel that the shuffler is broken because you think you get worse hands in arena than you do in paper. It doesn’t prove anything. Nothing you’ve said here proves anything. Claims need evidence to be taken seriously.
July 28, 2021 9:25 p.m. Edited.
RaidenShogun69 says... #29
Daveslab2022: im using my "experience", not my feelings. i don't "think" i get worse hands in arena, i DO get worse hands in arena. nothing you've said here means anything. i've already given my evidence, you just choose not to believe it and call me a liar. what evidence would actually convince you? im not hacking arena just to prove it to you. where is YOUR evidence?
July 28, 2021 11:35 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #30
RaidenShogun69 How about this: draw 50 hands in arena and 50 in paper, of the same deck ofc. Compile the stats, compare and contrast, and see what you see.
Also, everyone--let's all remember who we are here... we're all Magic players, and there's a person behind each account name. No need to be harsh or hypercritical. We're all adults and (hopefully) can have a civil discussion of dragons and slime warriors in a card game.
July 29, 2021 1:48 a.m.
RaidenShogun69 says... #31
Omniscience_is_life: i don't need to. i know theres a stark difference. decks that would have 24 lands in paper get 18-20 on arena.
July 29, 2021 2:32 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #32
@raidenshogun69
“Where is YOUR evidence?”
That’s… not how burden of proof works.
You said the shuffler is broken. You are making the claim. You have to provide the evidence. Also, your words are not evidence as you said. Evidence is some sort of proof of what you’re saying.
Like omniscience said, draw up some hands in paper and arena.
Hell, you can draw up hands on arena and on TAPPEDOUT! The website you’re on right now! I guarantee your results will be slightly different, but not drastically so.
Why will they be different? Because shuffling is random. But the trends should remain the same.
You can keep saying that you feel the shuffler is rigged based on your personal experiences, but that doesn’t make it true. I think you just haven’t played enough paper magic to understand that drawing too many, or too few lands, just happens sometimes.
I can show you people on the friggin PRO TOUR losing because they kept a 1-2 lander with huge upside and didn’t draw a land for the entire game.
July 29, 2021 8:36 a.m.
The shuffler is horrible.
Honestly make me pay $10 for the game and give me an (opt in) chat box with my opponent, the ability to shuffle (spam the F key and shuffle 100 times, it makes me feel better and more in control of my draw, instead of mulligan x3 and still 1 mana), give us STATS on the decks we use. These are features in basic, really basic free to play games.
I understand opponents talking could breed toxic behavior (OPT IN)
The shuffler sucks. Can't tell you how many ranked games ive mulligan'd into 1 manna three times in a row and just conceded, like you, 25 decks. Even if its an illusion, which its not, give me a button i can spam for 3 seconds and shuffle.
Overall my experience on arena has been testing out card synergies and dont put much stock in ranked play or otherwise. Its really not fun. Animations had work put into them, but NOT the user interface and it shows.
I recently made an AFR deck and its a nice platform to whip that up, play 9 games in 25 minutes and make adjustments. They just need to start tracking wins/loss's and more analytics for me. I raid Mythic in WoW and parses and logs have become the new norm so maybe it doesnt need that and im just drowning in data lol
July 29, 2021 10:09 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #34
Mulligans happen just as frequently in paper magic as they do on Arena.
There’s a reason every time the player base of MTG explodes, the mulligan rule changes.
When the mulligan rule was changed so that you draw 1 less card but get a scry, that happened shortly after MTGO blew up.
When the mulligan rule was changed to the current iteration, it was shortly after Arena officially released.
Each time it was due to more players playing more magic more often. You used to only be able to play standard or other formats at FNM or with your buddies. That lead to not very many games.
Now you can boot up arena on your phone at work or school or literally wherever and jam some games.
July 29, 2021 1:55 p.m.
FoxcloudOnline says... #35
I know this thread is slightly old but I had to find a place to vent somewhere about the ridiculousness of certain things...
Shuffling... yes it's off a little. They'll never admit it and nobody will ever be able to prove it. Computer based RNG is not a true RNG. Everyone does their best but it'll never be good perfect.
These other two things I need off my chest are very closely related...
This day in age it's pretty much standard procedure (and makes business sense, as infuriating as it is) for games to be "pay-to-win". They have no intention of letting anyone who doesn't pay as much to catch up to those that do. It's a way of life these days and I tolerate it. I've even spent some cash. The main issue there is that They're milking it. Just like every other company, they're giving us worthless ($) digital content and getting real money. Also... another thing I've come to accept and do so sparingly knowing that money is gone forever. They then have the audacity to treat the game like it's real life... but only for their benefit! ---REAL: You buy 100 packs in real life... you get some good and bad cards. Your money is gone but you have something that is actually worth something in return. You keep some and sell what you want. ---GAME: Same scenario. Darn... you ended up getting 10 duplicates of like 5 or more cards... but you didn't really. Anything over 4 is wiped from existence. You paid for 100 full packs, but you end up with 80 cards that no longer exist. They don't reimburse you in coins... or allow you to trade them (which Pokemon actually does)... and you're left with enough cards to make a couple basic decks that, honestly, no matter how good anyone is the decks could only win when the RNG works so bad in your favor you still barely scrape out the win. Now you've earned a few coins/packs/gems for "FREE" even though you wouldn't dare stop to think of how much time you spent to get them... XD
That leads to the most annoying freaking thing. People spent their hard earned time/money to get more cards... fine. That's their choice. Sure they have most, if not every, card. More power to them. Do I really expect my decks to beat them? Nah... but I earn and tweak and build decks I can be proud of... sorry for the next part...
THESE F'ING MORONS HOP ONLINE AND COPY THEIR DECK EXACTLY FROM SOMEONE ELSE TO WIN IN A GAME THAT HAS NO WAY OF EVEN GIVING YOU BRAGGING RIGHTS! It's happened with every set I've played the game for. It comes down to a handful of different decks that 90% of people are using. Sure they're good decks. I've even attempted a few (even though I don't have all the cards) and they're fun to try out. But mine were never a 99% copy. I changed a few things to make it work and had fun. Then I get right back to what the game is actually about. Building, strategizing, making mistakes, and fixing them... . . . But how fun is a game where you play over, and over, and over, against the same decks? There were very few, and 1% isn't even exaggerating, where I went up against something new and interesting. Sometimes they walked all over me and sometimes I did. But there are some nail-biting games I've been in! Losing doesn't piss me off. Depending on my mood... if it's a copied deck I may or may not stick around. Even when I do though I just zone out and trudge through the same old crap to the end. Sometimes I actually win... but there was no joy in it. The complete boredom of some basic minded person's practically playing card-for-card a deck I most of the time just finished playing against just kills it.
PHEW... thanks for listening if you did.
December 16, 2021 6:35 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #36
FoxcloudOnline: I'm right with you as far as most of your complaints go, but your last point irks me a bit. If MTGA is indeed a "pay-to-win" game, and many people are paying, shouldn't they be paying to be winning? After all, it isn't called "pay-to-have-fun", even though that may be the case.
As long as there's an incentive for a player to win (and there are many in the client), most players will want to--and what's a better way to win than to play Epiphany Combo, or whatever the tried-and-true meta deck is?
Ultimately, it's important to remember that a lot of these players actually are enjoying themselves; there's a special satisfaction in piloting a deck that you may not have brewed, but can still master. There's a solid chunk of the playerbase who refuse to play "netdecks" (I am included in this category, and so it might seem are you), but that's jus because those players find enjoyment in seeing something original pop off. And that just isn't the case for a lot of other people.
December 16, 2021 11:25 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #37
Honestly, the best decks are typically a community effort. Only someone with a monstrous ego would think they could out brew a collective. Heck, most people don't even have the time or resources to put their decks through a gauntlet and really test them.
Daveslab2022 says... #2
I agree with your point that the community can be toxic but that’s true for any community. It sucks but there are ways around it, like the mute button. You can also report usernames that are inappropriate.
As far as the shuffler complaint, I highly disagree. I’ve only been playing competitive magic since Ktk standard, so about 7 years. I have experienced no difference between the paper and arena shuffling. True randomness is just that.
The fact is that Arena allows you to play a lot more magic than you used to. I used to only play a few games with one buddy and then FNM every week, so probably 20-25 games total in a week. With arena, I can play 25 games in a day. When you play more frequently, you see bad hands more frequently. It’s just a part of the game.
July 26, 2021 3:38 p.m.