Worst cheater ever?

General forum

Posted on Aug. 22, 2013, 11:20 a.m. by SharuumNyan

Just wondering, what's the worst experience you've ever had with someone trying to cheat at magic?

I've never experienced blatant cheating before last Friday during a draft. Final round, I was playing this guy who seemed nice enough. I let him borrow my dice when he needed them, and there didn't seem to be any problems on game one.

On game two he knew I was playing flyers, so he throws down a Deadly Recluse , and then mumbles something under his breath. I go to counter it with Essence Scatter and he says "You can't do that." I'm confused, wondering what he's talking about. So I asked him why I couldn't, and he tries to explain to me that Essence Scatter can only be used to counter creatures when they come into play. Errrr...yeah? Isn't that what I'm doing?

Then he says "Didn't you hear me pass turn? It's your turn now, so you missed your chance." WTF? So his strategy was to end his turn by mumbling under his breath the moment his creatures hit the board. When I told him that isn't how the game works he got really whiny, and said he was still right. I was just getting ready to call a judge over, and he suddenly changed his mind.

He knew what he was doing.

That's called being a poor sport. And, yes, a cheat.

You always have the option to back up the game state if your opponent rushes through phases. You have to physically pass priority with Deadly Recluse on the stack for it to resolve. As long as you never actually did that, then the recluse is officially still on the stack, and can still be countered.

August 22, 2013 11:37 a.m.

Also, there are much worse examples of cheating out there. Like putting a card into your hand instead of the graveyard once it resolves, for example.

August 22, 2013 11:40 a.m.

Dallie says... #4

Poor sportsmanship indeed.

As landgrafb said, you can back up game states. What I usually do when I play with people I haven't played with before is asking a lot of questions so I know where they "are" in their game. You could ask him "Are you passing priority?" when he has put his Deadly Recluse on the stack, and then announce that you're going to Essence Scatter it.

August 22, 2013 11:44 a.m.

maiden77 says... #5

do people really do that landgrafb? Bloody hell!

August 22, 2013 11:45 a.m.

Dallie says... #6

Unfortunately, Magic, like most other games, has people who feel the rules do not apply to them.

August 22, 2013 11:46 a.m.

SharuumNyan says... #7

Yeah, this guy was trying to pull one over on me, and I was dumbfounded by it. It wasn't a matter of backing up game state - he was actually trying to convince me he was right! Some of my friends finished before us, so they stood around and watched a few minutes later. He didn't try anything else after that. I'm friends with our judge, so I'm thinking of bringing the guy's name up to him anyway, just as an FYI.

Apparently there was a guy banned from our store for literally having cards up his sleeve, but I wasn't there to see it.

August 22, 2013 11:59 a.m.

Darkness1835 says... #8

Worst cheating I've seen was someone who just draw cards when they suspected I was distracted or looking elsewhere. Even if the cheater does have decent sleight of hand, I'll look at your hand and wonder "Hmm... Turn 7... 6 cards in hand? Really?" The best part is I didn't call him out, hoping he'd get caught by a passing spectator or something, and I ended up winning the game. Afterwards I said something to the effect of "Wow! Idk how I beat you, you had such card advantage..." cue blank stare

August 22, 2013 12:15 p.m.

moghedien says... #9

Back in the day card sleeves were often clear both sides and like now days the ultra pro sleeves had a little shiny spot thing on them. I'm sure you know where this is going now!

Yep thats right my friend had all of his land cards with the spot on the back and all the non-lands with the spot on the front. kind of like a cheating mans divining top. After the first game playing him with this deck I checked it out, he of course denied having anything to do with it!

I guess this kind of cheating is hard to stop, even in tournaments. only takes a tiny mark to tell you what cards coming next, or even having all your land cards upside-down in the deck / sleeves or having non lands double sleeved is noticeable on top of the deck, maybe even having a small sleeve poking out the top of the big sleeve for your power cards...

Crap think i just added to the cheating problem, these are things to look out for tho

August 22, 2013 12:34 p.m.

gufymike says... #10

In sealed/limited without sleeves, that old land is easy to tell so you know what is comming due to the condition of cards.

The best I heard about was some people would use dragon shields and pressed hard against them to make them stick and draw 2-4 cards each turn (people i know who did it before i met them). One got caught when drew more than 4 at once that way.

August 22, 2013 12:39 p.m.

Demarge says... #11

I sometimes have to remember to not memorize things completely like I sometimes do, it becomes pretty easy to quickly memorize flaws or slight damage on a sleeve, in higher REL tournaments you are not allowed to look at the decks being shuffled as it can give away information. If you run into someone who tries to rush the game in their favor it is always best to purposefully slow down by making it clear that you'll only pass priority when you clearly say it out loud (though be careful you're not trying to waste time, just set their tempo to a normal speed of mtg).

August 22, 2013 12:51 p.m.

guessling says... #12

I have one slightly damaged sleeve in one of my sleeve sets - that one is for the commander. I'm glad it's only one because otherwise I would feel like I needed to replace the sleeves.

I have heard other people report cheating happening but I never seem to pick up on it myself. I don't know how much table-talk and collusion can venture into the territory of cheating but in a casual game I don't feel like calling that cheating. I might talk some smack too (especially if I am playing my coutnerspell deck) - although in my case it would be total BS just for fun.

August 22, 2013 1:02 p.m.

Bobgalarneau says... #13

I recently had the sleeve marking problem with those cheap ultra-pro sleeves and double sided cards. Combined with proper lighting, you can easily see the back side of the card. I'll never buy those in the future

August 22, 2013 1:03 p.m.

Apoptosis says... #14

@moghedien: having all your land cards upside-down in the deck I hate playing with sleeves. I have bad hands and started playing Magic before sleeves were allowed, so I usually play without them. Early in one tournament I had one card that was upside down and was told that if you have even one card in the wrong orientation (e.g. upside down) that can be grounds for a DQ, because of that very issue where people turned land cards in the opposite orientation. Anyway, in my case it was fine, but it's worth mentioning.

August 22, 2013 1:09 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #15

Many judges these days won't let you play constructed formats without sleeves.

August 22, 2013 1:13 p.m.

Apoptosis says... #16

@SharuumNyan I find that strangely ironic. (but I do believe you)

August 22, 2013 1:15 p.m.

guessling says... #17

The Legion sleeves I use are pretty good as far as that goes - although I just did a rigorous check and the designs that use whitespace wider than a finger do show through (now that I checked - I never used them with double-siders, though) - so I will have to make sure not to use those designs with double-sided cards. Most of the legion designs are fine.

August 22, 2013 1:18 p.m.

Aerokid says... #18

During an FNM I once had a guy slam shuffle my deck so hard that the picture on the back started noticeably peeling off on several cards. They had been iffy before, but now there was plastic hanging off a few of the sleeves. I was scared someone would call me out on marking cards and luckily had a few extras nearby to swap out the worst ones.

August 22, 2013 1:44 p.m.

moghedien says... #19

Using miracules could be abused, of course if you're using them you'll be careful to look at your draw card before adding it to your hand.

Fake shuffling and cooking the deck are easy to do, thats why getting both players to shuffle is so important in competitive play but when playing with friends just for fun its usually a bit more relaxed tho I've seen my friends take advantage of this. looking at their deck while shuffling then cutting it just right is good way to get more from your tutors. another guy takes all the land from his green ramp deck and perfectly balances it then adding a little bit of shuffling while saying that he has to or the deck won't play properly otherwise does not give me much faith in his shuffling

Thats an interesting point tho, how to shuffle after a gam?. I shuffle my hand together then fan them out a little too slide those cards into my deck evenly then shuffle the whole deck adding cuts as i go. the shuffling and cuts are all good but do i have the right to try and evenly distribute my cards through the deck before shuffling?

What do you do with all the cards that were in play? I used to lay down 2 non lands on a land to even them out more but then realised this was abusive and that my shuffling should totaly randomise the deck rather than giving it a helping hand. in tournaments i think i head the players have 5 mins (i think) to shuffle both decks, how long do you do it for?

August 22, 2013 1:46 p.m.

SwiftDeath says... #20

I have a friend who I am teaching proper magic I stopped after about a few months ago because he needs to learn things on his own too. We were playing EDH and I was controling the board and ramping faster then everyone. He was playing a Mono red deck and by turn 9 he somehow had more cards in hand then everyone else and had 2 less land then me when I ramped early and had a turn 3 Oracle of Mul Daya with two turns of additional land drops and a Genesis Wave for 8 turn 7. I told him not to do that again or I would take away all his cards and he knows Im serious about that. Needless to say I haven't caught him cheating again but Im always keeping my eye on him during games and it doesn't matter if Im playing or not.

August 22, 2013 1:51 p.m.

ampos says... #21

I was teaching Magic to 2 11 y.o brothers (and not very clever ones). One or 2 days after that, they were playing against other kids; one draw a black card (his deck was not black, perhaps the card was from his brother deck), so he said: "hey, brother, I have a black card and no swamps, give me one", -"ok, take it", and passes his brother a swamp on his table.

It was not really cheating, but was so astounding and funny!

August 22, 2013 1:54 p.m.

Joebobpickle says... #22

In tournaments, players have 3 minutes to shuffle and sideboard.

August 22, 2013 1:55 p.m.

ifired says... #23

Even though it's not considered Cheating, I once made a white-black-green deck in Prerelease dragonsmaze and put in Mountains instead of Forests. Luckily the opponents allowed them to be forests as long as there were no red cards in my deck

August 22, 2013 1:56 p.m.

You can do any amount of tinkering with the order of the cards in your deck between games, provided you also shuffle them properly. It's acceptable to space out your lands as long as you shuffle long enough afterwards to bring the deck to a random state.

August 22, 2013 1:59 p.m.

bman5604 says... #25

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mTjdaUTEYAQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmTjdaUTEYAQ

Worse case of cheating

August 22, 2013 2:15 p.m.

I've had cheating happen several times at places I played at. The placed I first started playing at was bad for it. People would shuffle their deck below the table to where you couldn't see them, and they would stack the deck every time. Others would do things they are not suppose to like play cards when they can't be played and the "store judge" would rule in favor of them. It also didn't help most people would played at this place were buddies with the judge. After the store got new management, the new owners put their foot down on the cheating. All those that cheated as well as the judge left not long after and never came back.

At another store I played at, the store owner who was also the "judge for fnm, would set the matches up to where it was always the same 4 people who placed in top 4. A lot of people noticed he set it to where these 4 played the same people who happen to not be very good at magic and just beginning to play. This would happen every week. A few of us called him out on it, and he basically told us that he has no control over who gets paired up which was BS. We told him show us how he does pairings, and he said no and if we don't like the outcome of the pairing we can go somewhere else. Eventually 90% of people who went there stopped going and the store went under.

Now a new store opened in town and there hasn't been any problems. A couple of those from the old store have come in from time to time, but they didn't last long. They got mad when they were not doing as well as they did at the old store and stop showing up. I'm glad for that as it keeps drama and other crap out of the store and allows those who play fair and ain't assholes to play and have fun which is what it should be all about.

Sorry for the long comment everyone.

August 22, 2013 2:26 p.m.

Barandis says... #27

That one was pretty bad, bman5604, especially coming so soon after all the Alex Bertoncini business.

Which I had to mention because it was getting difficult to believe that any thread about cheating went on this long without mentioning Alex Bertoncini.

August 22, 2013 2:26 p.m.

Dallie says... #28

@bman5604: A terrible move by a pro player.

August 22, 2013 2:27 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #29

@bman5604 - Holy crap! And on camera too!

August 22, 2013 2:29 p.m.

bman5604 says... #30

Yea both received a year ban I believe.

August 22, 2013 2:31 p.m.

Dallie says... #31

Jon Elden got two years.

August 22, 2013 2:33 p.m.

bman5604 says... #32

Yea I wish u could hear the commenters on it. I remember watching it when it happened I blew up twitter and many others did as well.

August 22, 2013 2:34 p.m.

bman5604 says... #33

Damn he got 2! Wow just shows u guys what cheating gets u.

August 22, 2013 2:35 p.m.

Barandis says... #34

Bertoncini got 18 months originally (it was recently extended to nearly two years). He did some of his best work on camera too.

August 22, 2013 2:54 p.m.

Dallie says... #35

I didn't know it was extended actually, I do now.

Well it serves him right. He must've been really good at cheating since he only got caught a few times.

August 22, 2013 3:26 p.m.

Aerokid says... #36

If they have the stones to pull that sh*t on camera, imagine what they'll do off camera.

August 22, 2013 4:06 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #37

@Aerokid Agreed. He didn't even match his card sleeves to the tablecloth to try and hide it either :D

August 22, 2013 4:21 p.m.

Schuesseled says... #38

Kinda sounds like to me that your opponent was just confused. You shouldn't always assume when someone quotes a rule that's obviously false that they are cheating.

August 22, 2013 4:38 p.m.

Schuesseled says... #39

A friend of mine used to use a dragon tribal deck, with only ten lands in it.

How you ask? Well he always shuffled the cards he drew during the game together then placed them back on top refusing to shuffle the deck itself, saying "It doesn't matter, i'll always do this even if I lose."

August 22, 2013 4:41 p.m.

Apoptosis says... #40

I didn't see the cheat in the video bman5604 linked, but the Alex Bertoncini cheat in one of the videos is clearly marked on the time. Boy it happens fast.

August 22, 2013 4:49 p.m.

Aerokid says... #41

Schuesseled How did that help him get the lands he needed?

August 22, 2013 4:50 p.m.

Dallie says... #42

@Apoptosis: The top comment explains what happens.

August 22, 2013 4:54 p.m.

Aerokid says... #43

Apoptosis Friedman puts Elden's Batterskull at the bottom of his library at 0:20, then when Elden searches a land, he leaves the bottom card on the table at 0:51. Then after his opponent cuts and he moves his library back to its spot, he slides the card into his hand which is hidden by the library at 1:04.

It might have been smooth if there wasn't an overhead camera watching everything.

August 22, 2013 4:55 p.m.

Schuesseled says... #44

@Aerokid, he always had the ten lands shuffled into the top 20 cards of the deck.

August 22, 2013 4:59 p.m.

bman5604 says... #45

As Aerokid stated.

August 22, 2013 5 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #46

@Schuesseled Yeah, he definitely was cheating and not just confused. I don't have a problem with people having rule confusion because there's a very simple solution - you call a judge over. If your opponent is so adamant he is correct, he won't have any problems discussing it in front of a judge. He wasn't like "I think you can't do that" it was "no, you can't do that." When the word "judge" was mentioned, he totally changed his tune.

August 22, 2013 5:07 p.m.

Schuesseled says... #47

ive had people so adamant they were right they have called the judge over to argue their case.

It could be that he realised he was wrong and didn't need a judge coming over to embarrass him further. Or maybe he's over on mtg salvation telling everyone about this dude who cheated trying to counter too late, and then he had the nerve to try and get a judge to back him up, so he just let the bully take the win.

You never know, all I'm saying.

August 22, 2013 6:02 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #48

Cheated by trying to counter too late? What do you mean by that? If he had passed turn and I untapped, that would be too late. Otherwise, the priority is still mine.

August 22, 2013 7:39 p.m.

He's saying that the other guy might have a perfectly valid reason for thinking his spider resolved. While it certainly sounds like he was just being a dick about it, there's definitely a chance, however small, that he thought he was making a legal play.

August 22, 2013 10:12 p.m.

Schuesseled says... #50

but he was probably being a sneaky dick.

August 22, 2013 10:16 p.m.

This discussion has been closed