Universes Beyond and Secret Lair sucks. Change my mind.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 7, 2026, 5 p.m. by theNeroTurtle
clayperce said they would be able to change my mind. So have at it.
I have been playing since Tempest (1997). The lore of a new creature tribe like the Dauthi will forever outshine stupid corporate brands like Jeff Goldblum and soft gimmick abilities that are just renamed effects from older sets.
Dumb!!!
There is no legitimate reason to be against secret lairs, other than perhaps some of the formatting being hard to read (which is a card design issue, not an issue with the concept of secret lairs). For those who want the cards, they get access to cards that are often under retail value. For those who do not, they can ignore them, and maybe capitalize on them by getting versions of those cards for a bit cheaper as supply increases.
Nobody loses anything with Secret Lairs - and, overall, they are a mutual win for Wizards and players alike.
Regarding Universes Beyond, there are some reasons to dislike the proliferation of them - mostly the feeling that they devalue the core elements of the game by diluting Magic lore with other IPs. I know this was my initial impression of them.
But I have changed my mind a bit on UB. Why? When Warhammer came out, I spoke with my LGS owner, who is a huge Magic fan and a huge 40k fan. His excitement at seeing his two favorite hobbies mixed was infectious. That has been the case for every UB so far. My own happiness seeing some LotR characters. The happiness of one of my best friend’s three year olds seeing a Miles Morales card. Maybe I do not care for every UB - but I know someone out there does, and I can be happy for other people.
I prefer Magic IP, but I also have a basic level of empathy where I can accept it makes others happy and that is fine. Frankly, I would rather play with someone who is having fun and excited about their cards, even if their cards are UB, than play with pretty much every “I am militantly anti UB” person I have ever met. The first is having fun with the game; the second is far too often trying to hurt others’ fun.
January 7, 2026 6 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #4
clayperce, you can not be serious. One card vs the entire lore of the birth, downfall, and revenge of an entire tribe from 97'? You have to be joking.
Defending all of the cards in an entire card set of crap past, present and future stands all on just one card?
January 7, 2026 6:51 p.m. Edited.
theNeroTurtle says... #5
Caerwyn, the loss in Secret Lairs is lore. We went from wizards and treefolk to having video games and comic books that exist outside of the Planeswalker worlds. In the game "you" are a planeswalker. And that is lost with these product merges.
As for UB, the obvious goal is to attempt to keep of with other card games like one piece. They are marketing to new, younger players. I respect that effort. However, the lore once again, is gone. Paying rent and having New York pigpens is idiotic. Magic, not MTG, mut magic is supposed to be magical. Do they have good cards, sure. But.... modern day police officers entering the game has removed the magic. At that point you are no longer a planeswalker with lore casting spells. You are just watching cards move around. Pay to win.
please note, I am fine with it and it is about the fun just as you said. If I am in a pod playing Ninja Turtles and Star Trek, if they are happy I am too. The game is about fun. However, in star trek, you are no longer a plansewalker. The lore is over.
January 7, 2026 7:06 p.m.
Your counterpoint about SLs is completely without basis in reality, and it seems you are confusing SLa with UB. Those are two separate issues - some SLs are UB, but SLs, as a concept, exist independently and must be evaluated separately.
Small batch cards have been around since the beginning of the game - event promos, book promos, judge promos, bonus sheets, etc. SL drops are a continuation of that trend - releasing a couple batches of cards every now and then, many of which are directly inspired by the lore and showcasing popular cards in new lights, does not harm the lore at all.
Your position on SLs seems to be based entirely on some misplaced anger and not any semblance of reality.
I also do not buy your argument that UB somehow pollutes the “lore” of playing the game. Let’s acknowledge a simple reality - the fundamental concept of UB has been part of this game since 1993 and the game’s first expansion of Arabian Nights. 1999’s Portal Three Kingdoms was likewise effectively a UB set.
Furthermore, while the official lore has always been “we sit around playing as planeswalkers” that lore (a) has become less prevalent, particularly since the foundational change to the game’s understanding of planeswalkers with the Mending and (b) I am willing to bet the vast majority of players kind of ignore that “lore” when playing. Speaking for myself with decades of playing, I have never once seen someone reference that lore in an actual game - it is more one of those historical tidbits that sometimes folks bring up.
The fact that some of the “magic” might be gone from the game is a legitimate complaint - but that does not mean you are just pushing cards around. It is still a game with strategy where you have fun with your friends - and if you want to play pretend and say their planeswalker selves summoned real world characters… you can do so… like people have been doing since ‘93.
Your pay to win statement has no relation to any other point you are raising and has been a part of the game from the beginning, so it is not without any merit.
All told, your entire argument stems on a misunderstanding of the game’s history and an attempt to preserve a purity that didn’t even exist in 1997. Your post, accordingly, seems fundamentally flawed. Instead of nitpicking at the game and trying to preserve something that hasn’t existed since ABRU, maybe just have fun with it…?
January 7, 2026 7:25 p.m. Edited.
RiotRunner789 says... #7
Caerwyn "There is no legitimate reason to be against secret lairs..."
Your LGS. You can be legitimately against Secret Lairs if you support your local game store.
There is a finite amount of money magic players have and how much they are willing to pay. The vast majority of SLs cut out the middleman (your LGS), which increases Hasbro profits at expense of most players favorite place to play.
On a side argument not against SLs directly (as in the product itself), Hasbro "sucks" at selling them. The limited print runs supports scalpers and often pushes SLs out of the price range and/or availability to a group of players that want them. This breeds resentment which can manifest itself in a multitude of negative ways for the game.
Both problems stem from Hasbro putting the business above the game. I believe this will lead to a long term net negative for MtG but maybe the Exectutives at Hasbro know better than I.
January 7, 2026 7:32 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #8
I don't think that Secret Lairs have any impact on Lore compared to mainline In Universe sets. Secret Lairs are mostly reprints in a variety of different styles, but they're not telling a narrative, or really interacting with existing lore beyond "Here's existing stuff with new art". Compared to Universes Beyond, I think Secret Lairs are easier to ignore; I couldn't tell you which Secret Lairs dropped last year without looking them up.
My feelings on Universes Beyond have changed since it debuted. I was initially very put off, but now have mostly positive feelings to them. I agree that Magic would be fine without IPs like Spiderman, Marvel, TMNT, and Star Trek. It's definitely off-putting to have two different mainline sets in NYC. All that being said, it's easier for me to ignore these sets since I don't play stuff like Standard, but it's super unfortunate for folks who do play those formats and don't have the option to ignore them.
My general thoughts on Universes Beyond are as follows:
-
I think UB would have been more warmly received if WotC rolled out either the D&D or Lord of the Rings sets as our initial dive into UB. Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but I think players would have been more receptive to the overall concept with those as intros instead of the Walking Dead Secret Lairs.
-
As cool as it is to see some IPs like Final Fantasy, LotR, and ATLA to a lesser extent fleshed out in full sets, I wish that these sets weren't a part of Standard or Modern, and were instead supplementary sets like Conspiracy or Battlebond. I think having some IPs relegated to just EDH precons or Secret Lairs would also serve them better instead of trying to squeeze a full set out of them.
The general sentiment I've seen around various corners of MtG social media is that the more magical/fantasy adjacent IPs are more warmly received, and anything further from that isn't.
January 7, 2026 7:35 p.m. Edited.
RiotRunner789 - I do not think the numbers actually reflect the fears you are raising. Wizards has consistently been clear that LGSes are not just an important part of their funding stream, but the overwhelming majority component of it (I want to say it was over 80%, but it has been a while since I read their press release on it). This is hardly surprising - it is game stores where people go to draft, and draft which drives the largest component of Magic sales.
Protecting LGSes is a large part of why Wizards consistently runs things like LGS only promos; why they have done tests allowing LGSes to buy SLs through separate systems from players (so they can flip them for a profit). Considering, on the whole, Magic has driven a reversal of the LGS struggles of the mid 2010s, I think it is fair to say SLs are not really impacting the currently growing LGS industry.
January 7, 2026 7:40 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #10
More to OP's original gripe.
I personally don't like most UB. I especially don't enjoy paying a premium price for standard legal sets. Worst, I hate how UB is becoming more ubiquitous than MtG IPs.
However, I agree with others on this thread that UB helps to bring in other players. It helps to build excitement for existing magic players. I loved the LOTR UB (it's fantasy setting feels close to magic). I think overall UB is a good addition to the game, just wish they could dial it back a bit (I hope poor sales, thank you Spiderman, will pull them back.)
January 7, 2026 7:46 p.m.
theNeroTurtle -
I'm always serious. Dont worry about it though; I didn't expect you'd understand.
Cheers!
January 7, 2026 7:54 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #12
SLs are UB don’t need to be evaluated separately because both of them enter game play just the same as any other set regardless of their intent. If I am playing against SpongeBob, the lore is gone. I am not fighting a planeswalker in the traditional sense. I am fighting in Bikini Bottom. Outside of Unglued, which does not see play, name a silly set from the origins of the game as you claim that disrupts the lore.
How can “reality” even be part of this discussion when this is clearly an “opinion” thread. Arabian Nights was still lore. A Gin is literally magical. Spider man and Sponge Bob are not. And although many of those cards work now, that set tanked when it came out.
Although my comment talked about lore in the opening thread, the post was “change my mind”. All you have noted is that I am wrong for not understanding the game history. I am still waiting on a “change my mind” moment.
Again, as I have already stated previously, it is fun and I have fun regardless what cards see play in any pod. Years and years and years of Orgs, elves, and demons shifting to Star Trek is a shock to lore regardless of your outtake.
Your comment kind of come across as if I am mad and wrong. This is an opinion post, so how can I be wrong when opinions are obviously not facts, but simply just that… opinions.
Change my mind.
January 7, 2026 7:56 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #13
I would disagree with the argument that it doesn't or only negligible damage to the LGS.
Argument to your favor, SLs are not the only struggle for the LGS. Online only retailers, big box stores, proxies, MtG Arena, et cetera, all pose business struggles for the LGS.
I agree that WoTC doesn't want the LGS to die but I don't think their above bleeding the cow.
What's difficult is describing how damaging SLs are to game stores. I don't have internal sales numbers from WoTC and/or the thousands of LGSs. What would be nice to have is a survey of how Secrect Lair purchasers spend money on magic.
For myself and small group of friends I've talked with, we generally have magic budgets. If we splurge on SL, we generally cut back on other magic purchases and not outside purchases (coffee/movies/etc.) But a small sample isn't necessarily the magic community.
Edit: Fixed a typo.
January 7, 2026 7:59 p.m. Edited.
theNeroTurtle says... #14
Crow_Umbra, obviously SL is just reprints, but when the reprints are Ghost busters and Sponge Bob... LOL
January 7, 2026 8 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #15
RiotRunner789 LOTR still fit the lore. Where is jeff goldblum does not.
January 7, 2026 8:02 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #16
theNeroTurtle based on your comment about LotR "fitting the lore" of MtG, I think you mean it fits the themes/aesthetics/motifs of MtG.
Lore is more so the stories and narrative. Themes, aesthetics, and motifs are more so about the settings and art directions.
LotR fits the fantasy themes of MtG, but it is not part of its narrative lore.
January 7, 2026 8:10 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #17
Depends on how you say "fit." It fit the trope of fantasy. But it was no where near the mainline Magic lore.
It fit in a roundabout indirect way. MtG was based (probably more accurate to say inspired) in part, on D&D. D&D was based, in part, on LoTR.
Though the story/lore that Tolkien wrote and created is a world apart from Magic's. The similarity ends somewhere between elves and wizards.
January 7, 2026 8:11 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #18
RiotRunner789, Crow_Umbra, Caerwyn, clayperce
Let's look at it more basic... (theme, not lore... sorry)
My issue with UB and SL and "lore" is that MTG has always been about magic. treefolk, wizards, elves, monsters, the undead, vampires, etc. Basically D&D on paper. How in the world is Star Trek and Sponge Bob not destroying that?
Change my mind.
January 7, 2026 8:12 p.m. Edited.
I think it is very clear that you have no intention of changing your mind - hardly surprising given the kind of person you are emulating with the framing of this thread. The fact that you continue to confuse SLs with UB - even when explicitly (and obviously) pointed out that not all SLs are UB and plenty of SLa are in-universe prints - is kind of proof that you’re not actually comprehending pretty basic points about the topic.
Ultimately, though, if real world 3rd century Chinese historical figures in a completely non-magical set do not break your verisimilitude (as have been in the game since ‘99), but fantasy, magical New York does, well, that is your choice. I think it is a silly choice, and one that seems like manufactured outrage - but I suppose you are entitled to making yourself angry over something so utterly inconsequential as policing the way others have fun.
January 7, 2026 8:39 p.m. Edited.
theNeroTurtle says... #20
Caerwyn wow, judgmental much? forget i even posted the thread. Crazy.
January 7, 2026 8:46 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #21
I'm not going to read everything here (out of laziness), but from an economics perspective there are three compelling reasons why WOTC is implementing Secret Lair.
God I feel like ChatGPT right now. But I assure you, this is from the heart and not our AI overlords.
The first reason is sustainability. The truth is, WOTC is massive, but every world is drawn from some point of inspiration. At a certain point, it is inevitable that the well of inspiration will begin to run dry. From there, you have a few options. You can continue to progress the story (Dominaria, Lorwyn, Tarkir), introduce new and adjacent lore (Innistrad, Zendikar, Ravnica) or sort of do both by massively pushing history so far forward it becomes nearly unrecognizable (Kawagami).
Aside from creator burnout, the second reason is a two-for-one; Diversity and adaptability. I do not mean diversity in terms of racial or gender alignments, but from an ontological perspective.
Ontological means: Showing the relations between the concepts and categories in a subject area or domain.
In this case, we have an ontological alignment in that WOTC can select IP that is both compelling and engaging, for a wide arrangement of audiences. We can have a new Zombie adaptation with The Walking Dead, and a high fantasy theme for Zelda and a Kaiju theme for Godzilla. Whatever theme or core they want, it already exists and is ready for publication. That's your adaptability aspect.
Adaptability and ontological diversity go hand-in-hand for this exchange because something that is already rich and well-developed is, by necessity, adaptable.
The third, and arguably the most crucial reason, is user engagement. Let's use an example that I don't believe has been printed yet: The Elder Scrolls.
TES has a MASSIVE fan base. Even fans who don't play MTG will want to buy the set for collector reasons. And this leads toward engagement because some of them may enjoy the cards so much, they buy more sets. Now you have a legitimate returning customer.
So, to reiterate, Secret Lair and other expansion sets offer:
- Sustainability between sets while larger core stories are being developed.
- Diversity and adaptability in the game.
- Player engagement and expansion.
Like it or not, they're here to stay because they work, from an economics perspective.
January 7, 2026 8:58 p.m.
theNeroTurtle If I may ask, what do you consider "pure" fantasy? In my weird-take-y opinion, Bloomburrow is just about one urbanization and Omenpath away from being the New York City presented by Spider-Man and TMNT. It's not that much different from old Kamigawa compared to Neon Kamigawa. It sounds like the core of your dislike is basically how recognizable the characters are. Arabian Nights and Portal Three Kingdoms already got mentioned. Is Frankenstein's Monster a problem? If you've been playing since Tempest, do you remember the hatred many people had for original Innistrad?
I do have one major problem that I have with some Secret Lairs that's been looked at but not really addressed here: mechanically unique SLs. I don't really care that Lara Croft, Tomb Raider and Super State are Universes Beyond. I care about how limited and poorly implemented the releases are--if you don't buy them directly from WotC within a very narrow window of time, or one of the restricted supply from a WPN store, you probably aren't going to get one easily. Limiting access to functionally unique and useful material like this is one of the more predatory, FOMO-y things an entertainment company can do, and it's frustrating that it's happening here. I understand they're trying to reduce the impact by selling through the WPN. I also understand that most cards in the game are unlikely to be reprinted. But you don't have to drop everything, make a special appointment, and pray you're not ten minutes late to get Ashcoat of the Shadow Swarm the same way you do for Jin Sakai, Ghost of Tsushima.
January 8, 2026 12:58 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #23
honestly, I think it comes down to slapping on a franchise vs creating something new. The Justice League vs creating an entirely new creature class with its own world to explore. It is just lazy and lacks. For example, you do a Fantastic 4 set, everything is already done. No new bad guys. No new good guys. it's just text on a card that allows less marketing effort because it is an existing brand. Slivers are a great example. That was something new and exciting. Super Man is not new.
But honestly legendofa, I am done with the thread. One commenter was so disrespectful in here that I am kind of over it.
January 8, 2026 1:24 p.m.
DarkKiridon says... #24
What a wild ride this was! :D
Give me my Captain Kirk card! (Only cause I share the same name haha)
January 8, 2026 3:15 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #25
DarkKiridon, i just don't understand why people need to get so heated over it. I actually play a few UB cards because those cards are good. But, I am talking about lore, theme, brand... change my mind of how that is a good thing long term for this card game. It's not. One Piece is the biggest card game right now. Stay true to yourself or fade away. And mtg is fading. I use UB. I play with people that love UB. And in all of it, we have a great time.
However, prove to me that it doesn't suck. Honestly, I am however over it. I don't like hate conversations. And since one got started in this thread, we can just drop the thread.
January 8, 2026 3:35 p.m.
I don't like kid's cartoons. I like magic. Almost every time I play magic now I get heaps of anachronistic immersion-breaking superheroes and kid's cartoons shoved in my face. With UB sets like LOTR or FF (IPs with fantasy theming), at least they blend in to the original MTG flavor enough to stay pretty inoffensive, almost tolerable. Transformers, spiderman, avatar, ninja turtles? Even the in-universe sets have become terribly gimmicky and unrealistic e.g. MKM = "The Clue Set" DRT = "The Racecar Set" even as far back as SNC as "The Mafia in 1920's New York Set," etc. %100 with OP, this all dilutes the lore and cheapens the experience for all players in favor of cashing in on society's insatiable appetite for such rehashed corporate slop IP. Hate to see it.
January 8, 2026 3:52 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #27
capwner, same here. I can understand wanting to compete with newer cards games like One Piece that are topping the chart or attempting to bring in younger, newer players... but they are shooting themselves in the foot there, because the new releases are mostly receiving sales from Standard players. And I know a lot of Standard players that are fed up with increased release rates and dumb gimmicks.
I am still waiting on someone to change my mind.
January 8, 2026 4:15 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #28
"I'm over this thread, just drop it."
"I'm still waiting for someone to change my mind."
These seem like conflicting sentiments.
Everyone is entitled to their various opinions about what they do or don't like about Universes Beyond or Secret Lairs. It seems fruitless to try and convince anyone, let alone someone internet rando, about changing their opinion on a hobby.
January 8, 2026 4:27 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #29
Crow_Umbra, you are 100% correct on both counts. I guess, despite not properly posting the thread, my thoughts are to seek why people think that these UB sets might help the brand vs harm it.
January 8, 2026 4:55 p.m.
Ultimately, it comes down to what someone's priorities are. If you hold the integrity of the story as more important than the appearance of the cards, you probably won't like UB. And that's not really a bad thing by itself. But if you like the idea of your favorite franchises interacting within a comprehensive game framework, or even simply seeing your favorite franchise in your favorite game, UB could be the best thing ever. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that either. And if you don't care about what the cards represent, and see most of their value as mechanical elements in a strategy game with no deeper story than a game of poker, you probably won't care one way or another about UB. And again, that's a valid perspective. The point is that there are different ways to enjoy the game, and everyone will have a different idea of what's important and worth protecting. So I'm not trying to change anyone's mind with this post, just lay out some reasons why some people think differently than others, and hopefully explain that there's no single "right" way to enjoy the game.
Universes Beyond won't destroy the game. WotC is still committed to creating their own material. On the idealistic side, creative teams want to create, not adapt. That's why they joined the company. On a more cynical side, WotC wants to control its own M:tG IP and finances, and have a product line that doesn't involve losing profits on licensing fees or having another company watching over their shoulder. Corporations like making money and independence and don't like giving away money and supervision.
January 8, 2026 5:17 p.m.
theNeroTurtle says... #31
Hey guys... I feel like my question was misworded, and some of my responses were either misunderstood and or I replied improperly. With that, I started a new thread asking the question in a different way.
Crow_UmbracapwnerDarkKiridonlegendofaTypicalTimmyCaerwynRiotRunner789clayperce
January 8, 2026 5:21 p.m.
As this thread’s creator has posted a new, superseding thread on this topic, I am closing this one.
clayperce says... #2
"We can maybe try to change each other's minds in some other thread" <> "I can change your mind" ;-)
But that said, challenge accepted. Balthier and Fran. That's it. My whole argument. Three words; one card.
... pause ...
So did that change your mind? If not, no worries. I concede, with a handshake and a GG;WP! :-)
Cheers!
January 7, 2026 5:11 p.m.