Interaction between Hapatra Vizier of Poisons and Cauldron of Souls
Asked by AkrosTheClear 6 years ago
So if I have a Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons and a Cauldron of Souls and give some snake tokens persist right before they die, would the persist ability given to them by Cauldron of Souls trigger Hapatra's ability, thus replacing all the snakes that just died?
I know that tokens can't come back to the battlefield once dead, but I also know that -1/-1 counters being placed on a creature before it is even on the battlefield triggers Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons. For example, Noxious Hatchling will make one snake when it enters the battlefield if Hapatra is in play.
The ruling on tokens given persist is as follows: "If a token with no -1/-1 counters on it has persist, the ability will trigger when the token is put into the graveyard. However, the token will cease to exist and cant return to the battlefield."
When it says "the ability will trigger when the token is put into the graveyard..." it makes me think that that is when the -1/-1 counters are being put onto the tokens by the persist ability and would then trigger Hapatra.
Am I right in this assumption, or am I just reading way too much into the rulings? I made a deck around Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons and I want to make sure I am playing it right. I really appreciate any responses that can clear this up for me. Thanks
VraskaTheCursed says... Accepted answer #2
So it is important to understand that cards or tokens are only considered "creatures" when they're on the battlefield. Thus, Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons's second ability only applies to entities that are actually creatures when the -1/-1 counters are placed on them.
The tokens never return to the battlefield, as they cease to exist once they hit the graveyard, and therefore hapatra's second ability will not trigger.
TL;DR: No, hapatra will not make any snakes because the tokens never actually hit the battlefield again.
August 13, 2017 4:03 p.m.
RogueNinjaTheBruce says... #3
Further question! If I choose my opponents creatures to come back, say before a board wipe I tap the cauldron and select those creatures to gain persist, do I put the -1/-1 counters on their creatures? Or does the opponent do that since they own the creature? I understand that, according to one of the rulings as of 6/7/13, the triggers belong to the owning player, so do they put the counter on their returning creature?
I'm curious because of Hapatra's wording. I'm assuming it's the same as the owner of a creature with wither or infect, where the owner is the counter placer, but I just want to be certain. Thanks!
July 29, 2018 1:46 a.m.
crazyduels says... #4
I was looking at this myself so I'll put up an answer. There's an article magicjudges.org that sort of answers this. Since the printing of Hapatra cards do care who controls the effect putting the counters on a permanant. In this case your opponent's creature gains Persist, which means the opponent controls the Persist effect if it triggers, so they put the token on the creature when it return to the battlefield. As opposed to that punk Aku Djinn , who puts counters on your opponents creatures but makes them do it for you.
Raging_Squiggle says... #1
The persist ability will certainly trigger, however due to state based actions, the token will cease to exist before it ever gets to return to the battlefield.
If there are no tokens, there's nothing to put -1/-1 counters on, so Hapatra would not trigger from this.
August 13, 2017 3:45 p.m.