How do I calculate the number of +1/+1 counters?
Asked by mathijsderouck 6 years ago
Hi guys,
I am playing a Simic deck with a splash of black.This deck specializes in +1/+1 counters on my creatures from different sources.However, I have had numerous discussions about the number of counters that should be put on my creatures.
Could you tell me how many counters would be put in the following example? (all of them cards that are in my deck):
I have Hardened Scales in play
I have Corpsejack Menace in play
I have Master Biomancer in play
I have Plaxcaster Frogling in play and use the graft-ability to move one +1/+1 counter to the new creature
Now i put Phantom Nantuko into play. how many counters will be put on this creature when he enters play?
I believe Phantom Nantuko would try to enter the battlefield with a total of 4 +1/+1 counters (2 from itself and 2 from Master Biomancer), Both Hardened Scales and Corpsejack Menace are replacement effects and you would get to choose which is applied first (for best results you would want to resolve Scales effect first+1 counter then Menaces effect x2) to get Phantom Nantuko to instead enter with 10 +1/+1 counters, after that you would have the trigger from Plaxcaster Frogling to resolve which you would want to apply the same order of replacement effects to. Plaxcaster Frogling tries to put a single counter on Nantuko which you then modify to be 1+1 from Scales and modify again to be 2x2 from Corpsejack, putting a total of 4 more counters on Nantuko.
In the end your Phantom Nantuko I believe would have a total of 14 +1/+1 counters if you ordered your effects properly
February 2, 2018 9:48 a.m.
It seems more likely that the replacement effect will see Phantom Nantukos effect and Master Biomancers effects seperately and apply to both now that I have put more thought into it, meaning you would end up with 16 +1/+1 counters instead.
February 2, 2018 4:37 p.m.
Phantom Nantuko will attempt to enter the battlefield as a 0/0 with no counters, but two replacement effects are waiting to be applied, so you'll choose one, either it's own enter with 2 counter or the Master Biomancer's enter with 2 counters and as a Mutant. Once you pick one, you'll now have 3 waiting to apply, the one you didn't pick, Hardened Scales, and Corpsejack Menace. You should then pick either the one you hadn't picked or Hardened Scales, then two will be waiting so you'll pick the other, then just Corpsejack Menace will be waiting to apply so you'll pick that. Then, as no replacement effects are waiting to apply, Phantom Nantuko will finally actually enter the battlefield with 10 +1/+1 counters and as a Mutant in addition to it's other types. If you choose to apply Corpsejack Menace's ability at the first available opportunity, it would enter with 7 counters instead, which is why you wait until the last chance to apply it (you could end up with 8 or 9 if you wanted as well). Then, now that Phantom Nantuko entered the battlefield, Plaxcaster Frogling's graft ability will trigger. If, when it resolves, you choose to move a counter, you'll end up attempting to put that counter on, but find 2 replacement effects waiting to apply. If you apply Hardened Scales, then Corpsejack Menace, you'll put 4 counters on, if you apply in reverse order, you'll only put on 3 counters.
TL;DR: Anywhere from 10 to 14 counters, the controller of Phantom Nantuko chooses.
February 2, 2018 9:34 p.m.
DJSeras, No you were right the first time.
- 614.5. A replacement effect doesnt invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage not just 4, and not an infinite amount.
Only one event / modified event is happening here (Phantom Nantuko entering the battlefield / Phantom Nantuko entering the battlefield with counters), so HS and CM can only apply once.
February 3, 2018 12:43 a.m.
ItinerantFailure says... #7
Corpsejack has a replacement effect, his effect applies to each individual +1/+1 counter ability. Biomancer and Frogling each posses their own ability which will be doubled by Corpsejack and trigger Scales which will also be doubled. Your creature will receive 8 counters as it enters, doubled from it's own ability and biomancer, triggering scales and graft, then will receive an additional 2 when graft resolves and 4 from two scales resolutions. for a total of 14 +1/+1 counters.
February 5, 2018 11:37 a.m. Edited.
Hardened Scales is not a triggered ability, it's a replacement effect. As I outlined, it depends whether you apply it before or after Corpsejack Menace's ability. 10-14 counters after grafting, or 7-10 counters without grafting are all valid outcomes, if for some reason the controller of Phantom Nantuko doesn't want the maximum number of counters, maybe another player is controlling them. In general, you will get 14 counters off of this, but you do get to choose.
mathijsderouck says... #1
link to deck: Simic Plus One
February 2, 2018 7:53 a.m.