Dragonshift on a token plus Populate?

Asked by cklise 1 year ago

If you Dragonshift a token and then use a Populate effect later in the turn, will the new token be a 4/4 Dragon or whatever the token was originally? And if the former, will the new token remain a 4/4 Dragon permanently?

Epochalyptik says... #1

The populated token will be a 4/4 Dragon permanently.

June 15, 2013 11:03 p.m.

cklise says... #2

Sweet.

June 15, 2013 11:23 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #3

The token will be whatever it was before. Copy effects copy base characteristics plus the results of other copy effects, and Dragonshift isn't a copy effect. At no time will the populated token be a 4/4 Dragon.

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.

June 16, 2013 8:38 a.m.

hunter9000 says... #4

Doesn't Dragonshift change the copiable characteristics of the token, meaning the populated token would be a 4/4 flying dragon?

June 16, 2013 11:39 a.m.

cklise says... #5

Okay, now I'm not sure who's right. I know both Rhad and Epoch are gurus here, but now things are getting just a little too complex for me to be certain.

June 16, 2013 1 p.m.

cklise says... #6

On some further consideration, I'm sticking with my originally accepted answer. There is no text on a token, that I'm aware of.

June 16, 2013 1:22 p.m.

cklise says... #7

On further further consideration, I'm an idiot. I've got a lot of people telling me it's Rhad's way, so.. okay.

June 16, 2013 1:25 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #8

I initially thought the same thing, hunter9000, but I found this ruling on populate:

The new creature token copies the characteristics of the original token as stated by the effect that put the original token onto the battlefield.

June 16, 2013 1:42 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #9

@hunter9000: The rule I quoted tells exactly what counts as "copiable characteristics". An effect like that of Dragonshift doesn't meet that description.

This is just like making a Clone of a Bear Cub that's had Giant Growth cast on it. You get a 2/2 Bear, not a 5/5.

June 16, 2013 10:46 p.m.

DaryCR says... #10

The term in Dragonshift is becomes. Giant Growth doesn't say target becomes a 3/3. So, anything that has been Dragonshifted is a 4/4. Not a 2/2 +3/+3 =5/5 Bear Cub A dragonshifted bear cub with giant growth is a 4/4 +3/+3 = 7/7 Blue/Red Dragon with Flying. So wouldn't the original token also be a 4/4 Flying Dragon token?

December 12, 2013 6:46 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #11

No. As per the rule Rhadamanthus quoted, P/T-changing effects are not taken into account when copying a creature. They are not part of that creature's base copiable values.

This question was answered half a year ago, by the way.

December 12, 2013 6:57 a.m.

DaryCR says... #12

Dragonshift is still standard, by the way.

December 28, 2013 3:05 a.m.

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