Does Kiora the Crashing Wave prevent Scuttling Doom Engine from dealing 6 when it dies?

Asked by ansemriku 5 years ago

I was messing around with two different practice decks and I saw this interaction and was wondering how it worked. Using Kiora, the Crashing Wave 's +1 ability targeting Scuttling Doom Engine , then following it up with a removal spell to prevent the 6 damage is the way i think it works but I am not sure.

Drilnoth says... Accepted answer #1

Yes, Kiora, the Crashing Wave 's +1 would prevent the damage. Even as the Scuttling Doom Engine dies, the "source" of the damage remains the permanent and anything affecting it (such as prevention) still applies.

July 16, 2014 4:35 a.m.

Matsi883 says... #2

@Drilnoth: Are you sure. I would think the source is the card, but not the permanent, and since Kiora, the Crashing Wave says "target permanent," permanent being on the battlefield, it wouldn't prevent the question.

Sorry if I'm just wrong, but something here made me uneasy.

July 17, 2014 5:01 p.m.

ansemriku says... #3

I Thought it made send the way @Drilnoth explained but after looking into it more the term "dies" refers to a creature entering the graveyard.

700.4. The term dies means is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.

So if Scuttling Doom Engine dies, it might be true that trying to prevent the damage no longer applies.

July 17, 2014 6:16 p.m.

Drilnoth says... #4

Eh, looking further it seems almost ambiguous. The things which I've just been looking over are 119.2b, 119.7, 609.7, and 112.7 (they're long so I won't repeat them here; they can be found at http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/). I'll keep looking...

July 17, 2014 8:52 p.m.

Drilnoth says... #5

Yeah, not coming up with any prior questions about this sort of thing (including using older similar cards). I'll stand by my original stance because that is how things similar to this tend to work (like, if you were to give the Scuttling Doom Engine lifelink, it would cause lifegain, as an additional effect of the source dealing damage). This is different only because Kiora doesn't modify the target's characteristics, but instead modifies the game rules.

Certainly an interesting question, and a bit deeper than I'd originally thought.

July 17, 2014 9:03 p.m.

ansemriku says... #6

@Drilnoth I thought so as well.

After discussing this with some of my friends who are not offical judges at the moment, what you said does seem to be correct. Kiora, the Crashing Wave is a very strange card that as you said, modifies the game rules, making a permanent be able to prevent all damage dealt to and by it.

So for the period that a card like Scuttling Doom Engine is targeted, Kiora, the Crashing Wave still prevents all damage regardless of whether the target remains in play or the graveyard.

July 17, 2014 10:32 p.m.

Drilnoth says... #7

Paging Epochalyptik. You're pretty good with this game's rules. Might you be able to more definitively answer?

July 18, 2014 3:36 a.m.

Mberges11 says... #8

so can Kiora, the Crashing Wave target permanents in an opponents graveyard as you play her +1?

July 30, 2014 4:39 p.m.

Drilnoth says... #9

@Mberges11: No, those aren't permanents, those are permanent cards. A card is only ever a permanent if it is on the battlefield.

Note for future reference that it is generally best to ask a new question rather than posting in an existing one. Posting in an old question doesn't move it to the top of the queue or anything, so only the people who posted in it previously will see a notification that something new has happened.

July 30, 2014 4:58 p.m.

Mberges11 says... #10

So how does Kiora, the Crashing Wave still target Scuttling Doom Engine if it is in the graveyard as it has to be to die and its 6 damage take place? Just trying to work this out since people say it is so ambiguous. It would seem that Kiora, the Crashing Wave would not be able to protect a player from target permanent if it was no longer a permanent, right?

July 30, 2014 5:26 p.m.

Drilnoth says... #11

First of all, Kiora's ability only targets while it is on the stack and resolves. It does not continuously target the permanent.

Second, zone changes triggers have a number of rules associated with them which cause them to be able to reference the object as it previously existed (so even though the Engine may be in the graveyard, the trigger also still knows how it existed on the battlefield).

July 30, 2014 5:43 p.m.

Mberges11 says... #12

So kiora still remembers doom engine from the battlefield as a permanent and player still has protection from it?

does 400.7 and 400.7b explain this certain instance in mtg?

July 30, 2014 6:43 p.m.

Mberges11 says... #13

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:

400.7b. Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes.

July 30, 2014 8:53 p.m.

Drilnoth says... #14

I cited above the rules that I'd been using as a reference. 400..7b has no impact on this scenario (it applies to spells becoming permanents, not permanents going to the graveyard). 400.7d is more likely to be applicable, but again, I'm not 100% certain on this but will stand by my above analysis.

July 30, 2014 9:39 p.m.

@Drilnoth you're right. same way as if I have Ryusei, the Falling Star on the field with Whip of Erebos and Ryusei dies, I'm going to gain a crap ton of life because its dies trigger is going to go on the stack still remembering that Dragon Buddy had lifelink.

March 26, 2015 11:34 a.m.

Drilnoth says... #16

Well, thanks for the support, but you really don't need to revive a post from 8 months ago just to agree with the accepted solution... :)

March 26, 2015 9:24 p.m.

This discussion has been closed