im almost 100% sure this is old shit, but it still pllies
TappedOut forum
Posted on Aug. 3, 2015, 10:37 p.m. by DERPLINGSUPREME
on the deck help forum its almost ALWAYS just deck promoting.
can we please deal with that...?
or
epoch, go ahead and arrest me for this shitty idea
It was unclear to me at first too, honestly.
I posted a thread advertising my deck in the commander forum, and it got moved to deck help. I didn't need help with my deck, it just got moved for whatever reason. I didn't fight it, I just let it be and stopped trying.
August 3, 2015 10:42 p.m.
No I am saying "thats the reason for the forum what else could it be".
August 3, 2015 10:44 p.m.
I'm in EmblemMan's boat. What else would the Deck Help forum be for, exactly?
August 3, 2015 10:48 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #7
It's the only place you can put deck links, so they act as a dump for any thread containing one. They also kind of need to be the place to advertise the deck.
August 3, 2015 10:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
The exact purpose of a deck help forum is to solicit help with a deck. I don't know what other purpose you envision for it, but I doubt that it's something not sufficiently addressed by another forum.
@-Logician: The "NO DECKLISTS" rule exists because it's easier to confine all direct deck links to the DH forums (logically, the only reason to link your deck is to provide an example and/or [really just and] solicit views) than it is to (1) identify the distinction between a request for help and another intent behind linking and (2) get the community to comprehend that distinction and act on it.
August 3, 2015 11:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
This thread was moved to a more appropriate forum (auto-generated comment)
August 3, 2015 11:21 p.m.
I'm actually with Derp here. I've seen so many deck "help" threads which are just titled "My EDH deck" or similar with the text either saying "check out my new deck" or no text at all and then either posting a link or better yet, plain text of the URL (take a shot).
It's not hard to at least say what you want help with. And if you just want to promote your deck, then use the deckcycle feature like everybody else.
August 4, 2015 12:13 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #11
If you're brand new to the site, you don't know that though. This is a lot of people's first forum site, they have no idea what they should and should not be doing.
August 4, 2015 12:35 a.m.
And that's fair enough, I get that people might treat this like MtGSalvation or one of the other MtG forums. But I've seen users who have had accounts for over a year doing this. Just means that people who actually want help have to wade through spam, as do the people who want to offer help.
August 4, 2015 12:42 a.m.
Deck help does very little to actually garner any real attention anyways. You want help on your deck? Seek out 20 users experienced in the archetype you're building in that format, tag them, make it clear that you expect nothing, and ask for help politely. You'll get a reasonable amount of assistance after a short while.
August 4, 2015 12:53 a.m.
@TheDevicer You are implying a level of integration with the site that was already dealt with in a previous comment.
I don't really agree that deck help is no help, nor do I find it to be a particularly precious resource. A quick eyeball of the EDH Deck Help reveals that most discussions there got some traction, even some bigger (15+ comment) topics. seems like a sustainable volume that isn't drowned out.
August 4, 2015 12:55 a.m.
Which is probably the best way to get help sure, however doesn't actually resolve the issue. At the end of the day, I don't think it's the end of the world. Just annoying is all. Does mean the forums get cluttered though.
EDIT
Wild YeaGO appeared. Was the integration comment aimed at me?
August 4, 2015 12:56 a.m. Edited.
well we have a few options it seems
-allow promotion of decks in the general forum
-ban all decks explicitly not seeking help
-change the name of the forums to Decks and Help
-...other!
(but I still don't know what the goals are)
August 4, 2015 1:01 a.m. Edited.
I'm not all for drastic measure like banning decks. Can't we just keep complaining and do nothing? it seems to work pretty well...
August 4, 2015 1:03 a.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #18
@enpc NOW you're thinking like a problem solver!
and obama.
August 4, 2015 1:09 a.m.
Serious post now. The problem with letting people advertise decks in forums is that the second it catches on, you'll have a much bigger issue in that the forums become a giant cluster. Maybe there should be tutorial that you have to go through before you're allowed to post threads? a bit of a pain I know but it's better than dumping more work on the mods to mointor it all. It seems like half of the problem is users not knowing how the rules work. And if you have a note when you're actually creating the thread (for deck help) that reminds users that this isn't a place to advertise decks (don't know if that exists already).
August 4, 2015 1:11 a.m.
jandrobard says... #20
enpc The thread tutorial can't hurt too badly, even if some people just skim it or forget parts.
August 4, 2015 1:25 a.m.
It it was like 2 minutes max but mandatory before you can post in the forums (or even on decks) then at least people would be educated. And yeah, as jandrobard said, some people will skim through it but most people will read it. It also means people will learn how to link decks / hyperlink properly.
August 4, 2015 1:38 a.m.
@enpc I just thought I should point out that your idea of deck cycling like everyone else doesn't work. If every active user is cycling their deck regularly then the chances or your deck being seen will be next to 0%. As things stand now, when you cycle your deck it rarely stays on the front page where people can see it for very long. So if more people started doing it regularly then they would remain visible for even less time making that probably the worst way to advertise your deck.
I think the obvious answer is to go with one of yeaGO suggestions and just change the name of it to "Deck list and Deck Help" (or something similar and obvious). This way the moderators/site admins can continue doing things as they normally would and then the only real change is that people won't have a reason to complain about deck advertising in the deck help section because they would officially be one in the same.
August 4, 2015 2:01 a.m.
abenz419 - I disagree. By deck cycling, talking to other experienced users (as suggested above) and creating meaningful forum topics that promote discussion (see this as an example) as well as helping out other users I have gotten my main decks to several thousand views each. And sure, it took time to get them there, but that's part of the whole process, being patient. A lot of people seem to forget that.
August 4, 2015 2:15 a.m.
Like you literally just said, you singled people out and talked to them and did several other things to make that happen. I can guarantee you that deck cycling was the least helpful of everything you did, if it had any effect on what happened at all. You also say you created meaningful forum topics that promote discussion. Well, the fact that people are creating forum topics in the deck help section (meaningful or not) when all they want is to advertise their deck is the reason this thread was created. Regardless, why should someone have to create meaningful conversations with a few individuals if all they want is their deck to get seen by as many people as possible. You shouldn't have to go around explaining the deck and asking for help if that's not what you want.
Originally, I was just pointing out that telling people to deck cycle like everyone else if they want to advertise isn't very useful. The more people there are cycling decks the less likely your deck is to be seen on the front page because it won't remain on the front page for very long. So if your really trying to advertise your deck, deck cycling is probably the worst way to go about it. The amount of time people have to see it is limited and there is no guarantee that the small amount of people who do see it will even look, even if they are interested in it (sometimes people are just busy doing other things or are like me and stopped looking at them all together when they started seeing 60 land decks being cycled). So the best way to get your decks seen by people who don't regularly visit your profile is to create a forum post. Since the forum admins want to keep deck list out of all the non deck help forums, the simplest thing to do is to change the name. There's no complaint to be made about "deck advertising" in the "deck help" forums if it's obvious that both belong in the same forum.
August 4, 2015 2:44 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #25
So this unspoken discussion comes up again. Cool.
The fact is, the deck help forum DOES help people. And it can be extremely hard to get recognition by deckcycling simply because there are so many decks. Perhaps not now, but during the year, a deck will stay on the homepage for around 30 seconds, which means it will probably take something extra (upgraded username, great name, lots of votes already, keywords such as FNM or Budget) to get views. Most decks don't have those. Which means that the ONLY other methods of getting feedback are featuring (but most users don't use it, probably because don't want to spend money), getting it on the top decks list (very difficult to do if you're a basic user, but it can be done), the help list (rotates out pretty quickly too), Advertise your Deck thread (works, but not a ton of people know about it), and deck help. So as much as I try to stay away for the most part from DH, it's a very important part of the site to many users. And the thing is, most of them are not looking for particular tips or whatever, they just want the feedback that they couldn't get from deckcycling once a day, hence why they don't provide a long description.
Whew. I hate typing on a phone XD
August 4, 2015 2:51 a.m. Edited.
you singled people out and talked to them and did several other things to make that happen.
I think I may have asked for help from 3-4 users on that one for my Damia Deck (which is currently at 10K views)
You also say you created meaningful forum topics that promote discussion. Well, the fact that people are creating forum topics in the deck help section (meaningful or not) when all they want is to advertise their deck is the reason this thread was created.
I created a forum discussion. That fact that I was using what people thought to analyse my deck may be part of it, as I asked users what they thought. But moreso I created healthy discussion which is scalable to more than just my deck. Hell, I didn't even post a link to it there.
I get the logic that if less people post "Look at my deck" threads and deckcycle more then each deck gets less time. But iff everybody just starts posting a "Look at my deck" thread then not only are there a hell of a lot more thread (i.e. the chances of a given user clicking on a given deck is reduced) but the people who actually want help on their deck get drowned in the spam. And then what? we start up another forum section for deck help only and not advertising? see what I did there?
August 4, 2015 3 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON: Sure, I get that people want general help on their decks. And I have no problem with that. But there is a difference between saying:
"hi, can I please get some help on my deck overall, I feel like it can perform better and I'm not sure what I need to be optimising."
compared to
"pls look at my deck I want more views/likes k thx bye."
August 4, 2015 3:04 a.m.
Some of the people that frequent deck help actually go through a lot of the topics though. This means that they get to see a large quantity of both solicitations for genuine aid and those merely for attention. I semi regularly go through and I specifically help those that need help and ignore those that just want attention.
There isn't really a huge problem here? The deck help forum as a whole is for all levels of deck help, whether that's specific in-depth feedback or a quick look and a +1. It's up to the user in question who they choose to help, if any.
August 4, 2015 3:26 a.m.
Damnit ChiefBell, don't point out that this is a storm in a teacup, that takes all the fun away from it.
relooking over a lot of it, I can admit I got a bit fired up. Taking a step back and looking at it rationally, maybe the best thing to do would be to keep going as we are.
Sure, there a re a few people who post in the deck help for views and +1's and sure it irks me a bit, but at the moment the quantity is manageable. I don't want to see the help forums turn into deck cycle 2.0 but I think we're still a long ways from that.
August 4, 2015 3:35 a.m.
You keep pointing out how you did all this other stuff and it was the combination of everything that got you all the views on your deck but to the person who is just seeking views all that stuff is irrelevant. You did all that stuff because you were looking for help. As you said, you used other's comments to analyze your deck and you asked others what they thought. That's because you were seeking deck help and a byproduct of getting help was people had to see your deck in order to help (more views). For the tappedout user that is simply advertising their deck for others to see and +1 or get ideas of their own that's not helpful. I mean I guess they could pretend that they are looking for help and suggestions just to get more views, but that brings me back to what I asked you before. Why should someone have to create a meaningful conversation if all they want is as many views as humanly possible and nothing more. What you say is beneficial to anyone seeking actual deck help, but not to those looking solely for advertisement.
August 4, 2015 3:44 a.m.
At this point, I think it boils down to something much simpler. Namely this:
At the end of the day, getting more views on your deck means nothing if you're not going to improve it. Its all just made up internet points that mean absolutely nothing about the quality of your deck.
But people actaully asking for help are trying to make their deck as good as it can be. They want other user's inputs and are happy to change things to make their deck better. The internet points may be there but they're a side note.
And since we already have the deck cycle tool, which still accounts for the mostpart of most deck's views, why should we then do a half arsed deck cycle thing by letting people fill up the actual deck help section with more "look at me!" posts. Especially when a decent chunk of people who post in there either want to A) get help or B) foster healthy deck discussion. Not to mention there were at least (not sure if they still exist) threads sole about advertising your deck, to keep the rest of the forum clean.
So to the user just trying to get more views/votes by side stepping the system that 99% of people are happy to use, well tough. get in line and be patient like everybody else. Or if you want a premium service, pay for it. $5 (as a freaking once off, thats like 1 booster pack) will get you 3 deck cycles per day and if you're that desperate for the world to see your deck then you can buy feature tokens.
And here is the ridiculous thing - deck views and points mean nothing if you're not interested in improving your deck, because all it will do is get more people posting suggestions on your deck. Unless all you want to do is ride the high of "people are paying attention to my deck".
August 4, 2015 4:03 a.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #32
imo the deck help forum works perfectly fine. it takes less than 3sec to see if a post is just advertising a deck or actually seeking help. just skip those you dont like. every1 wins
<3
August 4, 2015 10:08 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
I've not bothered to read every reply in detail, but basically the "issue" of quality and quantity comes down to this.
In terms of quality, there's only so much we can do. None of us are here to micromanage the quality of DH posts. The quality of your posts is at your discretion. If you write poor posts, you're unlikely to receive constructive feedback. The most we can realistically do is promote user awareness of the importance of post quality. To that end, I republish my article on deck help every so often. I think any more than that tends to be lost on users; we've repeatedly seen that those who actually need to understand things like post quality and forum rules are the least likely to read educational material about them.
As far as quantity, I don't know of a solution. Everyone is entitled to use the DH forums. Restricting the forum itself would be unfair. And there are enough users that the flood happens regardless of whether people post multiple times per week.
Maybe we make threads in the DH forums cost a deckcycle. It'd limit the number of threads and encourage people to post intelligently. But that means more work for admins, including deleting misplaced posts instead of moving them (to prevent cheating the system).
August 4, 2015 10:37 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #34
But then many, many more people would use it because you would get more feedback then a regular cycle. And if too many people do it, the post will cycle out quicker. And then we'd be going in circles XD
August 4, 2015 11:23 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #35
Maybe we automatically hide from the front page any DH thread where the post is fewer than X words?
You see the trouble, though. All of the "solutions" are clunky and imperfect.
August 4, 2015 11:28 a.m.
For one of my recent decks, I admit to posting a thread advertising my deck. I was not looking for deck help. The reason I made the post was because I read one of your posts in the past, Epochalyptik, about getting more attention for your decks. It must have been over a year ago, but it talked about having a clever deck name, featuring your deck, tagging it properly, spending time on the description, and going to the forums to attract a little bit more attention. Since this was the first deck in months that I've even cared about sharing widely, it is actually the first deck in months that I've featured, and the first deck ever that I've decided to actually advertise on the forums. Perhaps I either misinterpreted what you suggested in the article, or as you said in an earlier post here, "To that end, I republish my article on deck help every so often." Maybe what I read was outdated. After reading in this thread how several regular users don't like advertisement posts in deck help, I feel bad for posting it, and I wouldn't ever do it again.
It looks to me as thought there is no space reserved for deck advertisement on the forums. Creating a forum for deck advertisement doesn't seem like a solution either. I'm perfectly content with that just not existing.
In comparison to a deck's personal page, the front page of the site doesn't seem to utilizing all of its real-estate. Perhaps deckcycled decks could exist on the front page longer if that were expanding, perhaps slightly increasing the potency of deckcycling.
August 4, 2015 12:49 p.m.
I'm not sure why people should be shamed for merely wanting attention for their creations. This is the place to do it.
Leaning towards just making the Deck Help forums Decks and Help forums. Maybe we could sticky the 'Advertise your Deck' thread to absorb the traffic.
August 4, 2015 1:09 p.m.
What yeago said is probably best. Just make sure it's still broken down by format and all will be well
August 4, 2015 1:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #39
I don't think it's so much shaming people for doing something as it is trying to encourage them to use the feature in a way that is actually beneficial to them. Generally, my first reaction to one-sentence deck help posts is to feel some degree of pity because I know that the post won't generate the volume or kind of feedback the poster is probably after.
That said, I don't know what we can really do about that as far as user education goes.
It only becomes a functional site issue if people start flooding the forums with loads of useless threads (there have been more than a few occasions where the entirety of the home page is deck help threads).
August 4, 2015 1:34 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #40
And I don't really think separating DH into D and H is a solution to anything; I don't see an issue with having both kinds of threads in the same location. More granularity just means more micromanaging (of the people who can't even figure out the difference between the format forums and format DH forums, how many are really going to understand the nuances separating D and H as independent forums?).
August 4, 2015 1:37 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #42
Putting Advertise your Deck on the main page could do something. It's probably better than DH anyways because you're guaranteed to get help. Except that some people will only do half the job, obviously. Still, it's certainly a start.
August 4, 2015 1:49 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #43
Are you suggesting
[Decks and Help] forums
- or -
[Decks] and [Help] forums
August 4, 2015 2 p.m.
I meant have the advertise your deck "standard", advertise your deck "modern", etc. Stickied in their respective areas on the forums.
August 4, 2015 3:52 p.m.
If you're just going have the forums used so people can advertise decks, whats the point of the deck cycling? Aren't you then just implementing another deck cycle mechanic that makes this one irrelevant?
At the end of the day, do what you want. I've already voiced my opinions why its a bad idea so there's no point saying any more from me. If you want to respond, tag me so I can see it.
August 4, 2015 7:28 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #48
@enpc: The two systems (forums and deck cycling) are additive. They don't make the other irrelevant at all. Each gives a different avenue for publicity.
August 4, 2015 7:41 p.m.
Epochalyptik: Sure, and if you're happy to manage those, then go for it. I still think we don't need another avenue for just deck promoting but as I said, the decision isn't up to me. Do whatever you guys think is best.
August 4, 2015 8:03 p.m.
There has been an advertise your deck thread for awhile. Hell, I think there has been 2 of them. No one has been spamming them consistently. If something like that happens in sure the mod staff will take care of it
EmblemMan says... #2
Thats the reason for the deck help forum?
August 3, 2015 10:39 p.m.