The Beginning of the End?
General forum
Posted on Dec. 23, 2015, 10:34 p.m. by CanadianShinobi
Hello, so this has been on my mind ever since the release of BFZ and now I want to see what the Community thinks. Put simply are we seeing the beginning of the end for Wizards?
If we look back to Theros we can demonstrably see that Wizards had begun pursuing line of thought for how Standard should be played. More recently this has become apparent with statements regarding a lack of 1cmc mana dorks in the future. However, I think we can safely conclude that Battle for Zendikar is a tremendously unsuccessful set, or would have been had Wizards not printed the Expeditions. Well, at least from a financial perspective.
What brought me to this line of reasoning is, well, Modern. Modern relies on Standard to gain new cards. And to develop as a format. While the format is currently healthy, it is undeniably somewhat stale. However, with Wizards slowly but surely changing their priorities in Standard I cannot but help feel that we are seeing the beginning of the decline of Magic.
Yes, the player base is growing, but can Wizards keep up with the demand? If they can will they continue to make proper decisions? Recent history has shown that they are prone to make repeated mistakes. If they cannot develop interesting sets, especially with the new rotation format, how will they continue?
I realize that this is most likely to be written off as one man's stupidity, but I am curious as to your thoughts on the matter.
CanadianShinobi says... #3
JWiley129 As blunt as always I see. Personally this was me just clearing some of my thoughts. Do I think Magic is doomed? Not really, but I have noticed certain things recently which made me think about these things.
December 23, 2015 10:48 p.m.
CanadianShinobi - I'd rather be blunt than tip-toe around. Also, if this is going to kill Magic, it's got quite a history to live up to.
December 23, 2015 10:52 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #5
There is approximately a total of zero people who will stop playing magic because you now can only cast a mana dork on T2 in standard. I'm probably overestimating that number.
If people only want to play with 1cmc mana dorks, they'll move to Modern, Legacy, or EDH (or Tiny Leaders). If they're more interested in the strategy than specific cards, maybe they won't move. Regardless, more players will come in.
The player base is growing, not shrinking. That's hardly the sign of a company in decline.
December 23, 2015 10:54 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #6
JWiley129 Oh I thoroughly appreciate your bluntness. I too am blunt. I suppose since we're always, or at least appear to be, on the opposing side of the conversation, I wonder if you ever entertain to yourself similar notions. Not in this matter particularly, but I've noticed you communicate in a very black and white manner. Me, I'm merely speculating. As I said, I don't think Magic is going to die, at least not immediately, but can we not agree that Wizards has made recent errors?
December 23, 2015 10:57 p.m.
CanadianShinobi - I do find it interesting we have opposing views on most topics. But how else do you grow aside from finding people who disagree with you?
Anyways, Magic is still growing and is the biggest its ever been. Sure there is some discontent with the power level of BFZ. But if that is what we're arguing about, Magic is doing fine. As MaRo likes to say, "A game can only survive if people are invested in it."
December 23, 2015 11 p.m.
slovakattack says... #8
So, it's kind of funny, but I've been actually building a cube recently, and in doing so I've come to learn a lot about what makes sets tick, and... well, I've learned that unconditional 1cmc mana dorks speed up the game considerably, by multiple full turns. I can totally understand why Wizards would axe them, if their intent is to make a more methodical play experience.
December 23, 2015 11:07 p.m.
There are quite a few warning signs that Magic in particular will fall on hard times in the near future. The card prices in particular strike me as bubble prices, which means as soon as the consumer base sneezes (and it has to eventually) speculators will dump their collections.I imagine a fair number of card shop owners are about to get squeezed out.
And there are some signs Wizards is running out of ideas. It feels like, with the Metamorphosis change and returning to fan favorite sets Ravnica, Zendikar, and Innistrad all within a few years of each other, that they're running out of creative impetus to print cards. We've had some good novel sets in those years, too, so I don't think this is going to happen tomorrow...but it has to happen eventually. The dynamics are such that it can't NOT happen.
Will it kill Magic, though? No. Not even close. But I imagine the storm to come will sting. On the bright side, maybe if prices fall enough I'll be able to afford that legacy cube.
December 23, 2015 11:31 p.m.
atomic_moose says... #10
I know quite a few players who said battle for zendikar was a big fail. Yet all those players are buying boxes on boxes of boosters, for the chance of an expedition. So financially, I think gaming stores that sell out of a product means demands are high and business is good.
On the gaming side, there were loads of fun cards in BFZ. They will probably be even more fun when Oath comes to complete the set and add to mechanics already in place.
What would kill magic for me is if Wizards acted like Games Workshop. To any of you who know what that means, I feel your pain.
December 24, 2015 12:51 a.m.
I think standard has been good to almost all the formats over the last year. It has given us seige rhino, atarka's command, kolaghan's command, flip jace, tasigur, anglers, ugin, & swiftspear. BFZ was a fail, the new ulamog is nice, but they evened it out with people chasing for the expeditions.
December 24, 2015 1:12 a.m.
Just because wizards are changing the way in which the game works (ie. what we can expect from mana dorks, or board sweepers) does not necessarily mean the game is dying. There are still a host of very, very powerful cards, its just that these are changing in nature.
December 24, 2015 1:27 a.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #13
mtg will never be doomed. we have our custom cards forum up and running and other pop culture can always be exploited.
end of story.
also, phyrexia
December 24, 2015 2:24 a.m.
Magic isn't dying, it's just kind of taking an Evolutionary Leap.
But, at the end of the day, if you want to keep magic running... Niv-Mizzet Planeswalker.
December 24, 2015 4:33 a.m.
:P Niv-Mizzet hasn't been a planeswalker in 2000 years (Ravnica wise), he's probably not gonna get one. Anyway, to me mechanically BFZ was kind of meh. Flavor wise, bfz was awesome. One of the most successful things bfz did was introduce devoid, which really help eldrazi out a lot. It makes them a lot clearer and more playable. Another thing Battle For Zendikar did well was reintroduce Zendikar mechanics that were in the original Zendikar block to new players. Who wouldn't enjoy playing a basic land at instant speed to trigger all your landfall abilities and counterattack? As others have said, I don't think magic is dying. If magic would have died, I think it would have been after Homelands got released. That was probably the worst set in mtg history from what I've heard. Anyway, just because mtg returns to previous planes doesn't mean it's dying. Perhaps they're doing it because they know some fans really want it. I think Shadows Over Inistrad will definitely be interesting because there's so many angles WotC can take on it. On a final note, how can magic be dying when there's so many Jace and Liliana fans?
December 24, 2015 5:18 a.m.
Ravolt 'Niv-Mizzet hasn't been a planeswalker in 2000 years: Shhh...
December 24, 2015 5:30 a.m.
Egann, returning to old worlds isn't that strange. Magic has a rich history of great planes and sets and it's great to return to that. I just started when RTR came out and I loved it! They're both trying to grow and keep their players and there is no shame in that.
Magic is growing and evolving. The powerlevel of Original Zendikar, Return to Mirrodin, Innistrad and Return to Ravnica was high, no one is denying that and now they're being more carefull about that. I don't mind weaker sets, I had a blast drafting BfZ and as long as they keep printing FUN cards, I won't complain.
December 24, 2015 7:25 a.m.
Okay so I tried reading most the comments here but I'm at work and can spend hours on here (though I usually do... woops...).
First off I want to commend JWiley129 for making the most excellent point that it's all a matter of perspective.
Let me tell you a bit about the LGS I've been working at for a year and a half now to make a point on this. We're one of the two notable small business Magic shops in town and in the last couple months we've essentially blown our competitor out of the Magic game. I should also mention we are a College town so a fair number of our regulars are students. When I first joined my LGS (Collectible Corner - CC for any further mention) Standard was a big deal and THE deal. Modern didn't exist. Really the only other format we supported was unsanctioned Commmander late nights after FNM. We run a tournament every night of the week and typically fire sanctioned with at least 8 players.
This diatribe is to make the point that we are a consistent and steady purely MTG focused LGS. Over the last year and a half I've seen a change. Most notably because of the problem that we are not gaining new players like we used to. A lot of our players are the same ones we've had for X months or X years. And like any devoted Magic player, after enough time, they started to realize that Standard is REALLY REALLY BORING and over the long run a huge investment - more so than Modern. So as you can imagine, a lot of our players are more interested in Modern than anything else. We run a free tournament Monday nights with $1 store credit put in the pool with prize being divided among 3-1 and better out of 4. Originally this tournament was only Standard. About six months ago we saw requests for more Modern. So we offered Modern in tandem. For a while both tournaments fired without a hitch. Then as time progressed Modern became more dominant. I can't tell you the last time we fired a Standard tournament on Mondays now.
My point is - as Magic players become more veteranized (fake words for the win), they naturally gain a distaste for Standard overall and see all the glaring problems that exist, so subconsciously, all the new sets start to look more and more lame upon their completion. "Wow look at all these cards that may never see play in Modern. Look how slow and miserable Standard is right now."
It's a natural thing and something a lot of the players at my LGS are already conscious of. Standard gets hype for about two weeks after a new set and then it's back to Naya Zoo, Affinity, and Tron vs Splinter Twin matchups.
Wizards is doing just fine. They aren't going anywhere. You're not the first person to think this. It's a matter of MTG maturity. Like seeing how terrible kids shows are now as to when you were a kid. Stuff was a lot cooler back then. Why? Cause you didn't know any better. Much as Mr. JWiley129 pointed out.
Apologies for the lengthy rant.
JWiley129 says... #2
I see this mostly as "the sky is falling!", when it's actually not.
What I see is enfranchised players being upset that "Magic isn't like it was back when I played!", which is the equivalent of "get off my lawn!" Because if we look at Magic from a historical perspective, we are far far away from the days where Mox Sapphire was in Standard. Or when Pestilence was a common. Or Tolarian Academy was a rare. Or even when Jace, the Mind Sculptor was printed (and he's never getting unbanned). The only constant to Magic is that Magic changes.
To this end, Wizards changes how the game is played. That's the entire point of Standard. Rotation on the legal sets forces change, and each Limited format is different to push different themes. The game Changes, but the constant is that it's still Magic.
Tl;dr - Most of the people who are upset can't deal with change.
December 23, 2015 10:45 p.m.