Whip of Erebos interactions
Asked by MagnusMTG 11 years ago
I want to make sure I know what I'm doing with this before I actually try it.
(Gah, I used to be a DCI certified Rules Advisor, but I've been out of the game for too long and can't figure this stuff out anymore...)
Anyway, Whip of Erebos - cool bit of kit, that. Can unearth critters, but since it targets creatures, does it matter if they have protection from black? (e.g. Blood Baron of Vizkopa )
I think it doesn't matter since a creature's protection ability only exists after it has resolved as a permanent, right?
Also, what about unearthing Obzedat, Ghost Council with the Whip or Sedris, the Traitor King or something similar? I think I saw someone else say that since Obzedat can exile itself and that creates a RTB trigger, that would override the permanent exile of the Whip's unearth ability. So . . what's up with that?
Ooh, I found a ruling on unearth that I think answers that second question:
"If a creature returned to the battlefield with unearth would leave the battlefield for any reason, it's exiled instead -- unless the spell or ability that's causing the creature to leave the battlefield is actually trying to exile it! In that case, it succeeds at exiling it. If it later returns the creature card to the battlefield (as Oblivion Ring or Flickerwisp might, for example), the creature card will return to the battlefield as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The unearth effect will no longer apply to it."
Just to be clear in this particular scenario: I could unearth Obzedat with the Whip and Obzedat can keep coming back and ghosting out as normal?
Yes, you can just stack the two triggers such that Obzedat's exile resolves first, it leaves play, and then the version that comes back at your next upkeep is a totally new version, with no memory that it was ever supposed to be exiled by the whip.
December 30, 2013 10:33 p.m.
Yeah, I knew it something to do with stacking the simultaneous triggers properly.
So, are their any abilities or characteristics of a card that are always in effect regardless of zone? A spell's name, casting cost, color, type, etc. I know are all relevant in graveyards and hands, but what about things in a card's text box that don't specifically say what zone they're active in?
For example, I know a flashback ability can only be activated from a graveyard, but what about an evasion ability like flying? If a creature that has flying is in a graveyard, is it considered a flying creature for the purposes of spells that could affect flying creatures in graveyards? - In a case like that, I guess rule #1: "Do whatever it says to do on the card" applies..
December 30, 2013 10:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
@WomboCombo: It does matter which order you stack Obzedat, Ghost Council 's and Whip of Erebos 's abilities. If Whip of Erebos 's ability resolves first, Obzedat, Ghost Council will simply be exiled. If Obzedat, Ghost Council 's ability resolves first, Obzedat, Ghost Council will be exiled, but will return later.
December 30, 2013 11:18 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
@MagnusMTG: Technically, all cards have all their written abilities while in all zones. Some abilities just function in different zones. While a creature card in a graveyard might have flying, flying doesn't matter while the card is in the graveyard.
It would take a while to list for you every zone in which each specific ability ability functions. If you have specific questions, it's best to ask them.
December 30, 2013 11:23 p.m.
I don't want an exhaustive list of every zone-ability combination, just a couple examples to help me intuit such things more naturally.
Here's a specific, though: Is there any creature that Whip of Erebos couldn't unearth from a graveyard?
December 30, 2013 11:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
No. The abilities that interfere with targeting (shroud, hexproof, and protection) function only on the battlefield.
In general terms, think about it this way: Static abilities of permanent cards function while those cards are permanents. Triggered and activated abilities of permanent cards can be assumed to function only on the battlefield unless otherwise specified.
December 30, 2013 11:40 p.m.
Good rule of thumb;thanks Epochalyptik!
I think I should go study the Comp_Rules.doc again and recertify as a Rules Advisor. In my local group of players, I'm usually the only one who thinks about these things. X-D
December 30, 2013 11:49 p.m.
Here's a followup question:
If I Whip something into play and then sacrifice it, the unearth effect means it gets exiled, but what if I sacrifice an unearthed creature to cast Rescue from the Underworld ? Rescue says that the sacrificed creature returns at my next upkeep. Does it matter that Rescue is returning it from the exile zone?
I'm thinking this is a good way to Whip creatures onto the field and then let them stick around permanently after a quick trip down below.
WomboCombo, Devonin, Epochalyptik? Is this legit?
January 1, 2014 2:54 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
It's generally best to ask a new question because the only people who will see this post are the ones subscribed to this thread or the ones you tag.
It depends. In this case, the sacrificed creature went directly from the battlefield to exile. Because Rescue from the Underworld only tracks the sacrificed creature and not whether that creature went to the graveyard, Rescue from the Underworld 's delayed triggered ability will return the creature from its actual zone to the battlefield.
If the creature went to the graveyard, exile, or the command zone, then left that zone, then Rescue from the Underworld would not return it. When cards cross zones, they become new objects. Rescue from the Underworld tracks the sacrificed creature into its new zone, but it won't track that creature across a second zone change.
Also, always read the Gatherer rulings first.
9/15/2013: If either the sacrificed creature or the target creature card leaves the graveyard before the delayed triggered ability resolves during your next upkeep, it wont return.
9/15/2013: However, if the sacrificed creature is put into another public zone instead of the graveyard, perhaps because its your commander or because of another replacement effect, it will return to the battlefield from the zone it went to.
January 1, 2014 2:55 p.m.
Thanks for clarifying that. I thought I did read the Gatherer rulings, but must not have understood them properly.
I was going to post it as a new question, but figured since it was so closely related it would be better to tack it on here. Now that I think about it, a new question definitely would have been better so people with the same question could see the answer. I'll remember that for the future.
Thanks again for all your help!
I look forward to abusing these Whip-and-Rescue shenanigans as often as possible!
WomboCombo says... Accepted answer #1
For your first question, you are correct in that static abilities (such as Blood Baron of Vizkopa pro-black) only work while he is on the battlefield, unless otherwise specified.
As for the Whip of Erebos + Obzedat, Ghost Council question: at the beginning of your end step you have the whip's exile trigger and obzedat's exile trigger. From memory (please correct me if i'm wrong), it doesn't matter which way you stack these as the outcome will be the same. The whip only cares that the creature in question has been exiled, which in Obzedat's case he has been. The delayed trigger on Obzedat still brings him back to the battlefield during your next upkeep.
December 30, 2013 10:30 p.m.