the chain veil question
Asked by Aelenium 10 years ago
There's been some discussing about this on another thread...
So can you use the ability more than once a turn?
It says
"You may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn..."
But let's say you find a way to use the ability more than once, can you?
Also if you meant that if there's some way to naturally activate Planeswalker ability multiple times without this card (which I don't know that existed) then what happens? In that case we can't say anything since it would depend on this other mythical ability that let's you use Planeswalker abilities multiple times.
July 2, 2014 4:09 a.m.
There's a bit of a debate over it right now. I think the wording would allow for multiple activations, but it is worded strangely and at least one judge has posted thinking that it doesn't stack with itself in a single turn. We'll unfortunately just have to wait and see the official rulings on this one to have a solid answer.
July 2, 2014 6:51 a.m.
First of all, either way, i believe you could activate the ability multiple times as long as you had a way to untap the card and have another 4 mana. The ability includes a 'may', so you could use it once before combat to use one planewalker's ability a second time, and then using it again after combat to use another's.
To whether you could use the ability more than once this turn, I'd say no. The word "once" on the card makes absolutely no sense unless it means "you can only activate the ability once more".
July 2, 2014 9:47 a.m.
My reading of the card is that it creates an exception to the rules governing activation of Planeswalker abilities, namely
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
With the effect of this card, you may activate one ability once, as though no player had previously activated an ability of that Planeswalker, and the use of "once" in this case makes it so you couldn't gain the benefit multiple times from the same Planeswalker.
If you activated it again, it would ask of a given Planeswalker "Have you had an ability activated already this turn as though you hadn't activated any abilities this turn?" and get a "yes" and not work.
No stacking is my call.
July 2, 2014 10:20 a.m.
billpasdmf says... #6
It would seem the word "once" could mean that the usage of the Veil becomes redundant, after you've activated it and have used one or more Planeswalkers twice in a turn. Yes, we will quite obviously have to wait for a ruling.
I don't think the addition of the word "may" is relevant, seeing that the ability in question is not a triggered ability. As far as I'm aware, there is no Planeswalker that has any mandatory loyalty abilities and even w/ this artifact, a player could opt to just lose the 2 life instead of using one.
July 2, 2014 10:28 a.m.
Like I said in the spoiler/rumour thread:
Don't confuse "once" with "once more" because in Magic, "once more" is always written "an additional" or "an extra"
Once means Once. If they meant more than once, they have accepted verbiage to communicate that, which they didn't use. And since it creates an exception for the PW, blinking the veil won't even get you there, because the PW knows whether it's been activated once as though it hadn't had any abilities activated yet.
July 2, 2014 10:30 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
I get the feeling the answer to whether or not the Chain Veil can "stack" with itself hinges on an as-yet unknown new/clarified rule in the CR update that will go with M15. The text is unclear and seems to say "no", but the presence of Captain Kurkesh in M15 (the Onnake made the Chain Veil) seems to say "yes". I wouldn't hazard a guess until we get the update.
July 2, 2014 10:32 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
Whoops, that name should be Kurkesh, Onnake Ancient. RTF-Preview =(
July 2, 2014 10:40 a.m.
I'm wondering if you use the artifact before you use your normal activation of the planeswalker, will you still be able to use your normal activation?
July 2, 2014 10:43 a.m.
His presence doesn't say yes to me at all. He copies abilities, and his people made this item. I can see why thematically it might look that way, but the presence of a copy effect in the same set as an effect that may or may not be copiable shouldn't be taken as even likely to be related rules-wise.
There's no reason you can't activate the ability multiple times, copy it, whatever. You can already tap it, untap it, and tap it again to create two instances of the effect. The issue is one of how the effect works.
And to me it appears to create an exception to 606.3, which once, allows you to act as though no abilities had yet been activated. Once you've done that, you've done that.
I stand by the fact that the eventual ruling from WOTC will in some way reference that they would have said "an additional time" or "an extra time" if it were able to function through multiple activations. It is WAY too powerful otherwise.
July 2, 2014 10:45 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
For the reference to Kurkesh, I just meant that it would be surprising for such a huge red herring to be in the set if the cards didn't actually benefit each other.
July 2, 2014 10:51 a.m.
Just my thought but the "once this turn" is referencing to "as if none of its abilities had been activated this turn". Meaning the second time you activate it, if your planeswalkers have used a second ability from this artifact then this will do nothing for them. Basically you can activate the artifact multiple times, each time it will check to see if each planeswalker has activated an ability as if none were activated this turn. The planeswalker a that have used this ability already will be unaffected.
July 2, 2014 10:55 a.m.
If you blink a Planeswalker, and then reactivate this ability, the blinked PW will get the benefit of it. That's about the only thing I can think of that makes multiple activations worthwhile.
July 2, 2014 11:05 a.m.
Doctor_ando says... #15
I'd say it means you can activate a planeswalker's ability on an OPPONENT'S TURN or even as a "response" in case someone tries to murder your planeswalker before you get a chance to use their ability for the turn (like say; on your upkeep)
July 2, 2014 12:42 p.m.
GreatSword says... #16
That's not true at all Doctor_ando. The normal timing restrictions still apply for activating the planeswalker ability (your main phase, with no other objects on the stack).
There's nothing in the Chain Veil's text that would imply its effects stack. It doesn't use the word "additional", like an Explore effect would use.
Also, here's Riki Hayashi, a level-3 judge saying in a twitter post: "The chain veil does not go infinite"
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/484208247210274816
July 2, 2014 1:02 p.m.
billpasdmf says... #17
@Doctor_ando There's nothing in the wording on this card that says it removes any of the other restrictions of planeswalkers; namely that you can only activate their loyalty abilities any time you could cast a sorcery. (During one of the main phases of your turn and with nothing on the stack)
July 2, 2014 1:04 p.m.
GreatSword says... #18
Now Riki hayashi's going back on his ruling; apparently it does work.
"I've been told by someone I trust implicitly on rules that the Chain Veil does go infinite with untaps. No excuses. I had it wrong."
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/484398443901640705
July 2, 2014 2:20 p.m.
"From the upcoming M15 release notes: Each additional time the Chain Veil's last ability resolves will allow you to activate a loyalty ability of each planeswalker you control an additional time. For example, if you activate the Chain Veil's last ability, untap it, then activate it again, you can activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker you control three times that turn."
July 2, 2014 5:02 p.m.
Well, there's our ruling then. It works as most had expected.
July 2, 2014 5:10 p.m.
Wow, that strikes me as a poor design choice then. The number of infinite combos that barely even require any thought about it are pretty overwhelming.
I suppose the 4-drop 4-activation cost will keep it out of most formats where they'll give a crap though.
July 2, 2014 5:29 p.m.
Guys. The Chain Veil + Nissa, Worldwaker + Kiora's Follower 0.o
July 3, 2014 10:31 p.m.
@SpydrW3bb? What about it? You can pay 8 mana to make 8 mana?
July 3, 2014 10:54 p.m.
Noooooo what Im saying is that you could, if you had more than one follower out, or something that could untap your follower, use the chain veil multiple times just from +1ing Nissa. I wasnt saying casting at the same time.
Draugo says... #1
We can't really give definite answers without ruling guidelines from WotC and I haven't seen anything for this card yet, but your question seems somewhat redundant since what The Chain Veil specifically let's you do is to create the situation you ask about.
Until further information from WotC we can assume that you can activate The Chain Veil multiple times if you can untap it. Based on its wording it will basically erase the knowledge that Planeswalker abilities have been used this turn. On the card itself there's nothing stopping you from activating it, using all of your planeswalker abilities, activating it again and continuing the cycle.
July 2, 2014 4:07 a.m.