Teysa + Darkest Hour + Lethal Vapors
Asked by sonnet666 9 years ago
If I control Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Darkest Hour, and Lethal Vapors and a creature either dies or comes into play under my control, is anyone forced to skip their next turn?
Lethal Vapors qualifies as a object involved in the loop, so I'm not sure whether this falls under the scope of:
716.5. No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
Example: A player controls Seal of Cleansing, an enchantment that reads, Sacrifice Seal of Cleansing: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. A mandatory loop that involves an artifact begins. The player is not forced to sacrifice Seal of Cleansing to destroy the artifact and end the loop.
If someone is forced to, is it the active player or the player who last receives priority?
hyperlocke says... #2
Throw in Blood Artist and you have a loop that changes the game state with each iteration and has a defined end (death of all opponents).
January 24, 2015 8:10 a.m.
It does actively change the board state, new tokens are being created. It's not a visible change, but it's there. Also all the actions are mandatory if no one destroys Lethal Vapors, so if no one is force or chooses to skip their next turn the game will be a draw. For instance Curse of Death's Hold + Darkest Hour + Teysa, Orzhov Scion is the same situation without the escape clause, instant stalemate.
Also, this isn't an ideal boardstate. I was just curious as to what would happen.
January 24, 2015 8:29 a.m.
I'm thinking that no one would have to skip their turn since the action isn't called for by Lethal Vapors, it's just a separate ability of a permanent involved.
January 24, 2015 8:31 a.m.
hyperlocke says... #5
"Doesn't change the board state" maybe wasn't very clear (and yes, wrong).
716.3 cares about the same game state being reached multiple times, independant of what happens inbetween.
- You control Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Darkest Hour, and Lethal Vapors. Let's call this Game State 1.
- A creature enters the battlefield under your control. This is Game State 2.
- Lethal Vapors triggers, destroying the creature. We're back to Game State 1.
- Teysa, Orzhov Scion triggers, giving you a 1/1 black Spirit token with flying. This is Game State 3 (Almost Game State 2, but with the token instead of a random creature).
- Lethal Vapors destroys the token, we go to 1.
- Teysa gives you a token, we go to 3.
- Rinse and repeat.
The board state does change. Nevertheless the same game state (1 or 3) is reached multiple times. 716.3 should apply. If this results in a draw or if you are forced to skip your next turn, I don't know.
January 24, 2015 9:02 a.m.
Whenever a spirit token comes into play the game treats it as a new and independent object. Even though the game state is the same to the eye it is radically different to the game. Congruent is not equal.
Read the example they give for rule 716.3. There's a reason they gave an example where nothing entered or left the battlefield.
Also the kind of loop they're talking about doesn't involve mandatory actions. A loop with mandatory actions stales the game even if it just keeps returning to a same looking game state. Read the second ruling on Oblivion Ring if you don't believe me.
January 24, 2015 9:12 a.m.
hyperlocke says... Accepted answer #7
Hmm... The term Game State is a bit fishy, because it isn't defined anywhere in the rules.
Anyway, in (this thread)[http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/254557-question-of-patience] on MTG Salvation they come to the conclusion that the game is a draw unless a player choses to skip his next turn.
January 24, 2015 9:42 a.m.
hyperlocke says... #8
Ah, damn, I didn't even check the preview on this one...
January 24, 2015 9:43 a.m.
Hmm, well I geuss that's settled. Thanks for putting up with me I guess.
January 24, 2015 9:46 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
716.5. is the important rule in this scenario:
No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
"Actions called for by objects involved in the loop" are things that are required for the loop to continue such choosing a target or activating an ability. The way I like to think about it is you can be required to not continue a loop but you can't be required to stop the loop.
hyperlocke says... #1
I'm not sure, but I think 716.3 should be applied.
716.3. Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
The loop of the cards you mentioned doesn't actually change the board state. If you're the active player, at some point you should skip your next turn.
716.5 says that a player can be forced to perform an action of an object that is involved in the loop to end the loop.
January 24, 2015 8:07 a.m.