Taps and Stacks
Asked by Schmidty 10 years ago
Okay, so as far as I know, or understand it so far....if something has a COST to tap, it creates a state based effect on the stack. So for example:
If Stonehewer Giant is to pay 2 and tap to activate it's ability, if an instant like Murder is used to kill it, as the stack resolves, the giant dies, then his ability still grabs the equip and puts it on a character. However if there is no cost, such as with Royal Assassin ...if he was Murder after he taps, he would die and his ability would have no effect. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
My MAIN question is in the following situation. Odric, Master Tactician is my general for my EDH deck. If I was to attack with him and at least 3 other creatures, and someone was to respond with a Royal Assassin or Murder after attacking is declared, would I still get to choose how the defending player blocks? Also, would they be allowed to tap a creature through an ability such as Royal Assassin so the creature isn't eligible to block in order for me to not choose for it to.
I hope this is all clear. The concept of stacks isn't 100% clear to me as is holding priority.
Epochalyptik says... #2
First, nothing state-based uses the stack except for state-based triggers, which are just triggered abilities.
Once an ability is put onto the stack, it exists independently of its source. Destroying or removing the source will not counter or remove the ability. Stonehewer Giant 's ability would still resolve, and so would Royal Assassin 's.
In the case of your main question, Odric, Master Tactician 's ability only cares about how many attacking creatures you control at the time the ability would trigger. Once it triggers, the ability is handled independently of the situation and of Odric, Master Tactician .
Also, because players must pass priority before resolving an object on the stack, your opponent has a chance to respond to the ability.
May 2, 2014 11:55 p.m.
But wouldn't the Murder make the operation illegal as the stack resolves? Thus having the game return to the moment before the ability started. That is to say if you use Murder to kill the target the equipment is supposed to go on? It makes the target illegal so wouldn't the whole thing go back to the starting point of the activation? And what if it doesn't have a cost, such as the case of Royal Assassin
And also still need to know how the stack works with Odric, Master Tactician and the declaration of attacking.
May 2, 2014 11:57 p.m.
Okay, Thank you Epochalyptik. So the defending player would have priority to respond before I choose how they're creatures would block. Also, if I'm understanding correctly, even if they responded by removing Odric, Master Tactician , I still choose how they block as the effect is in place before his removal.
Also, just if anybody can clarify, he needs to be declared as attacking with three creatures for this ability to work. If token generation through say Hero of Bladehold after attacking is declared, those two tokens do not count. They are attacking, but not attacking with Odric, Master Tactician at the original time of declaration.
May 3, 2014 12:01 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
In response to post #3: No. First, the only time the game state reverts is when a judge rules that the game state needs to be reverted to undo an action that was never legal at all.
In this case, Murder will not make any action illegal. Odric, Master Tactician doesn't need to be on the battlefield for its ability to resolve properly.
Equip is different. When a spell or ability has targets, if all of those targets are illegal when the spell or ability would resolve, then the spell or ability is countered by game rules. This is known as "fizzling." Nothing in this situation targets except for Murder . Even when a spell or ability does fizzle, nothing rewinds.
I'm not really sure what distinction you're trying to draw with Royal Assassin . Royal Assassin 's ability does have a cost: you have to tap Royal Assassin .
To answer the last question: you declare which creatures are attacking. If Odric, Master Tactician and at least three other creatures are declared as attackers, then Odric, Master Tactician 's ability triggers. You'll put the ability onto the stack. Players then pass priority in succession. If your opponent casts Murder at this point, then Murder goes on top of the stack.
The stack will resolve when nobody has any more responses. Murder will destroy Odric, Master Tactician , then Odric, Master Tactician 's ability will resolve and you'll choose how each creature blocks this combat.
May 3, 2014 12:07 a.m.
Thank you very much for the clarification. I was mistaken in thinking Stonehewer Giant said target creature to attach the equip to. I'm probably over complicating things in my head as well. haha. I really appreciate all of the help in this. I'm going to mark it as solved as I believe it has all been addressed.
May 3, 2014 12:13 a.m.
I guess another way to look at it is also the player casting Murder could do so in response to declaring the end of main phase, before combat phase. Then it would occur before Odric, Master Tactician attacks and makes the entire conversation above moot :P
FALLEN-X-ANGEL says... Accepted answer #1
Tap abilities go on the stack. It resolves even if the producer from the tap ability individually, regardless if the producer wasn't there at all. So with Stonehewer Giant you will still get it's ability even after the Murder . 602.2. To activate an ability is to put it onto the stack and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Only an objects controller (or its owner, if it doesnt have a controller) can activate its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise. Activating an ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the activation of an ability, a player is unable to comply with any of those steps, the activation is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that ability started to be activated (see rule 717, Handling Illegal Actions). Announcements and payments cant be altered after theyve been made.
May 2, 2014 11:33 p.m.