Skinrender my Giralf's Messenger?
Asked by Phat_Shadow 13 years ago
If I have a giralf's-messenger on the battlefield with his +1/+1 counter on him and then I play Skinrender, is it possible for me to put the -3/-3 counters on my giralf's-messenger so he dies and undying will trigger again?
Geralf's Messenger's Undying ability checks if it had +1/+1 counters on it when it died. If you play Skinrender and put 3 -1/-1 counters on Geralf's Messenger,a +1/+1 and a -1/-1 counter will "cancel" each other.
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
So it will return back with a +1/+1 counter,yes.
February 14, 2012 12:59 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #3
Lowmar is incorrect. Your messenger will remain dead. When state-based effects are checked, the game state shows two things:
1.) A creature on the field has zero toughness
2.) Some +1/+1 counters need to cancel out.
But, since this is all state-based, your creature dies at the same time the counters are removed, and the game remembers that it had some +1/+1 counters on it at the time that it died. Thus it won't come back. To save it you would have to remove the +1/+1 counter without killing your creature.
February 14, 2012 1:13 p.m.
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanents last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
February 14, 2012 1:43 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #5
Yeah, what he said. That's a good clarification on why mine works out.
February 14, 2012 1:47 p.m.
in other words you need 2 separate additions of -1/-1 counters for this to work. such as Scar ftw!
February 14, 2012 6:27 p.m.
in other words you need 2 separate additions of -1/-1 counters for this to work. such as Scar ftw!
February 14, 2012 6:32 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #8
Correct. If the first application of -1/-1 counters doesn't kill the creature, then only the state based effect that changes the number of counters happens.
February 14, 2012 7:15 p.m.
wish i knew this a few days ago, had my deck:vensertezzsorin venser deck with a constant wave of recasting/blinking Stonehorn Dignitary and i was up against a birthing pod zombie deck, and one of the decisive moves that won him the game was a Skinrender on his own Geralf's Messenger. Only reason why he could beat the stonehorn lock down was messengers direct damage.
Bueller says... #1
No. It's a tricky State-based action trigger that causes the game state to remember the +1/+1 counter it had on it even when it dies to its toghness being zero. The same thing applies when Black Sun's Zenith
kills anything with Undying. This obviously changes if the cause of death is not due to 0 toughness.
February 14, 2012 12:47 p.m.