Panharmonicon & Hydra interactions

Asked by Comfordor 8 years ago

If Panharmonicon were in play...

would a hydra, in this case Kalonian Hydra, enter with 4 or 8 counters?

Secondly, if a hydra would have an X cost such as Mistcutter Hydra, if X = 4, would it enter with 4 or 8 counters?

KaiserTruesdale says... Accepted answer #1

In both cases, the Hydras enter with four counters. Those two effects are replacement effects, or effects that modify how the object, in this case the Hydra, enters the battlefield.

To look for abilities that work with Panharmonicon, look for words like "when [this object] enters the battlefield" or "when [an object with a certain (sub)type] enters the battlefield".

October 15, 2016 1:31 a.m.

Comfordor says... #2

I thought this would be the case, as both effects state "enters the battlefield with 4".

But always best to check!!

One additional question

Corpsejack Menace would trigger twice giving each creature in original question, 12 counters? or 16 counters?

October 15, 2016 4:08 a.m.

PayOneLife says... #3

In both examples the creature would enter the battlefield with 8 counters because Corpsejack doesn't interact with Panhamonicon. This is because Corpsejack Menace's ability is also a replacement effect, rather than a triggered ability. The way you can tell is that triggers will start with "when", "whenever" or "at", whereas a replacement effect will say "If X, then Y instead". If it says "instead" you can be pretty sure it's a replacement effect.

Had Corpsejack Menace's ability been a triggered ability, it would check the number of counters on resolution and each ability would go on the stack separately. So you would get 8 counters for the first trigger, and then the second trigger would see 8 counters and double them for a total of 16 counters.

October 15, 2016 6:27 a.m.

Comfordor says... #4

Oh, I thought "if" related to triggered ability,

What Does the wording "if" relate to?

I thank you in advance, knowledge is fun, knowledge is power,

October 15, 2016 8:29 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #5

"If" doesn't really have any special association with a specific type of ability, except for something called an "intervening 'if' clause" that sometimes appears in triggered abilities. It takes the form of "Whenever [event happens], if [condition is true], [effect]". A triggered ability with an "intervening 'if' clause" checks the condition both at the time it would trigger and before it would start to resolve. If the condition isn't true at the time it would trigger then it doesn't trigger at all. If the condition isn't true at the time it would start to resolve then the ability does nothing.

As PayOneLife explained, a triggered ability always starts with "when", "whenever", or "at". A replacement effect can usually be identified by the presence of "as", "with", "instead", "prevent", or a couple other rarer identifiers somewhere in its rules text.

October 15, 2016 9:08 a.m.

PayOneLife says... #6

The word "if" only has one in game significance, which is known as an "intervening if" clause and effects only triggered abilities. Triggered abilities with "intervening if" clauses will say "When X, if Y, do Z". You can obviously change "when" with "whenever" or "at". With triggers that have intervening ifs, if the condition isn't true when the ability would trigger, then it doesn't trigger at all. If the intervening if clause isn't true when the ability resolves, it simply is removed from the stack and does nothing.

To use the example of Hellkite Tyrant, we can see that the second triggered ability has an intervening if. So at the beginning of your upkeep, Hellkite checks to see if you have 20 artifacts. If you don't have twenty artifacts the ability never triggers. If you do the ability is put on the stack. Then when the ability resolves it checks your artifact count again, and if it's less than twenty the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. This is different to most triggered abilities which just chuck the ability on top of the stack whenever the triggering event happens. Check out rule 603.4 in the comprehensive rules for more info.

On a different topic often you'll find replacement effects begin with the word "if" due to the structure of sentences, as in "If X would occur, do Y instead". However in this instance the word "if" does not have in game significance. The word "instead" is actually the word that tells us that we have a replacement effect most of the time:

614.1a Effects that use the word instead are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word instead to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

Hope that helps

October 15, 2016 9:10 a.m.

Comfordor says... #7

Thank you very much, this has cleared up all my questions!

Many thanks =]

October 15, 2016 10:05 p.m.

This discussion has been closed