Miracle + Vendilion Clique
Asked by I_H8_U_M8 10 years ago
So I recently Played a match where turn 3 I revealed Temporal Mastery then payed (1)(u) to cast. In response my Opponent played Vendilion Clique To Target the Spell in hand and but it to the bottom. My question is when does a player have to respond, My thought is that a player has to respond on the reveal before I cast it because the spell would no longer be in hand but on the stack, My opponent believes however that there is some crazy exception for miracle where the spell is both on the stack and in hand thus allowing him to wait till I've paid the casting cost.
What is the correct answer? Please provided appropriate ruling if able.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
Rules questions belong in the Q&A, which is linked in the header bar. I can't convert this to a Q&A thread, so it's going into the orphanage.
Miracle represents two things:
First, it is a triggered ability that triggers when you draw a card with the miracle ability and it's the first card you've drawn in the current turn. If you want to put the ability onto the stack, you have to reveal the miracle card and announce the trigger before the miracle card touches the rest of your hand.
Second, miracle is an alternate casting cost. When the triggered miracle ability resolves, you are given the option to cast the miracle card for its miracle cost.
If your opponent wants to respond with Vendilion Clique to put Temporal Mastery onto the bottom of your library, he or she has to respond to the triggered miracle ability. Note that you don't immediately cast the miracle spell, so it is in your hand while the ability is on the stack. Thus, it is a legal choice for Vendilion Clique 's ability.
May 13, 2014 12:08 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
@Kale64: That's only correct if the opponent waited until after the triggered miracle ability resolved and OP cast his miracle spell. Otherwise, the play is legal.
May 13, 2014 12:09 a.m.
Whenever you draw a card, it goes from the top of your library to your hand. Miracle triggers when the card is the first one drawn that turn.
When Miracle is triggered, you reveal the card to place the trigger on the stack, but the card is still technically in your hand. Therefore, it's susceptible to targeted discard effects like Vendilion Clique .
May 13, 2014 12:14 a.m.
@Epochalyptik: Yes, I totally agree but OP specifically stated that the opponent responded after he cast the spell, not to the triggering of miracle. Since the spell was already on the stack he couldn't have put the card back into his hand and then put it onto the bottom of his library.
May 13, 2014 12:14 a.m.
Would it not work because once you cast it, the card is no longer in your hand? It goes straight to the graveyard once its on the stack, right? He would have to respond to your main phase transition before you can even cast it?
Kinda like playing Sin Collector choose something like Lightning Strike and your opponent goes "Response, I'm going to cast it." It doesn't work that way...
I did find this:
702.93b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.
Vendilion Clique doesn't remove spells from the stack, so sounds like you got cheated.
May 13, 2014 12:16 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #7
In the case you mentioned OP, it's impossible to determine exactly what happened without further clarification. As mentioned by the posts above, the timing here is very important. If you passed priority to your opponent and they allowed the triggered ability to resolve, then they are in the wrong. If you reflexively paid 1U as soon as you revealed the Temporal Mastery , then you are in the wrong.
May 13, 2014 12:18 a.m.
Did also find this after I hit "Post"
"If the card with miracle leaves your hand before the triggered ability resolves, you won't be able to cast it using its miracle ability."
on this site if anyone needs it: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Miracle
So I guess it will a legal play according to that.
May 13, 2014 12:18 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
@Kale64: I'd be inclined to agree, but there are specific problems with miracle. Often, players "rush" into the casting without knowing that it's actually a triggered ability or without giving the opponent ample time to respond. In such a case, the opponent really may not have meant to wait until the card was cast; the option may not have been given to him or her.
@Gienah: Spells are put into their owner's graveyard only as the last step in their resolutions. They don't instantaneously go to the graveyard. The ruling you quoted actually says the card is in the player's hand until the triggered ability resolves.
May 13, 2014 12:19 a.m.
@Epochalyptik I always reveal the miracle card first, I gave my opponent time to reposond, he specifically choose to respond to the cast, not to the reveal.
May 13, 2014 12:33 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@I_H8_U_M8: Then your opponent would have been unable to deal with the miracle spell.
May 13, 2014 1:13 a.m.
Seraphicate says... #13
If you revealed Temporal Mastery , and he decided to respond by flashing a Vendilion Clique into play, right after you drew it, that is legal, and your Temporal Mastery would be sent to the bottom of your library.
However, if you have given your opponent time to respond to your draw of Temporal Mastery and they only decided to flash Vendilion Clique AFTER you cast it as a miracle, they cannot remove Temporal Mastery from your hand, as you have already cast it.
Vendilion Clique does not counter spells, it simply gives the caster the option to move a card from a player's hand to the bottom of their deck. Sounds like the other guy was either cheating, new to Magic/that deck, or extremely bad at reading.
Kale64 says... #1
The player is wrong, once a spell goes onto the stack then they can't respond by taking it out of your hand since it's not in your hand anymore.
May 13, 2014 12:05 a.m.