Milling an oponent while they have Laboratory Maniac?
Asked by Zzdragon23 12 years ago
Just sitting here pondering some different things as far as a mill deck that I am currently making, then it struck me, what if an opponent has a Laboratory Maniac in play, and I (just as an example for my deck) Play Increasing Confusion to Mill the rest of his deck. Looking through the FAQ for the set's they go to, I found no help for Laboratory Maniac FAQ's stating: * If for some reason you can't win the game (because your opponent controls Platinum Angel, for example), you won't lose for having tried to draw a card from a library with no cards in it, because the draw was still replaced.
And Increasing Confusions FAQ's stating: * Regardless of which zone Increasing Confusion is cast from, it puts cards from the top of target player's library into that player's graveyard.
This is normally what my judge would go to if he didn't know, and honestly I am completely stuck, If you need a deck that I am putting together to help for some reason here it is deck:post-m13-turbo-fog-mill-budget.Just need clarification just in case this comes up in a game,Thank you!
Zzdragon23 says... #2
Hmm? Really? Because at my Local shop the judge rulled the winner to a person I was facing against that had an infinite mill combo going on. If you need the specific example I can start pulling up the different cards he used.
August 6, 2012 9:56 p.m.
BrokenZygoma says... #3
So he was infinitely milling and his opponent had Laboratory Maniac ? Because having no cards in library doesn't make you lose. Only drawing while there are none. And Laboratory Maniac just reverses that effect.
August 6, 2012 10 p.m.
Zzdragon23 says... #4
Sorry, I forgot to clarify there was no Laboratory Maniac but still there was no drawing going on. Hmm, as soon as i get around to going to the shop I'll see what the judges think. If your ruling is correct then the player with no cards in libaray should have one (seeing that he had an Elixir of Immortality on the table and was going to win next turn) I'll do some more research and see what happens, this is still open to awnsers for now...
August 6, 2012 10:07 p.m.
BrokenZygoma says... #5
Okay well if the person getting milled was able to activate his Elixir of Immortality before his next draw step, he would not lose just to being milled. That simply isn't possible.
August 6, 2012 10:09 p.m.
Zzdragon23 says... #6
Hmm, quite intriguing, again, if someone else wants to pipe in, go right ahead. Proof from the rules book or anything would help! I'm still searching to see if that would happen.
August 6, 2012 10:13 p.m.
BrokenZygoma says... #7
Oh and I should point out that the person with the Elixir of Immortality would be able to activate it during his upkeep, before his draw step shuffling his graveyard into his library, therefore avoiding the draw with an empty library.
August 6, 2012 10:14 p.m.
BrokenZygoma says... #8
"120.4. A player who attempts to draw a card from a library with no cards in it loses the game the next time a player would receive priority."
The opening steps are:
1 Beginning phase2 Untap phase3 Upkeep (players can activate abilities and cast spells here)4 Draw step
Allowing them to shuffle their deck with a card like Elixir of Immortality before drawing.
August 6, 2012 10:19 p.m.
Zzdragon23 says... #9
Well, yes. I do fairly understand that, it was the point of I got milled to death without drawing what so ever. That's what I'm trying to figure out is can you lose by having an empty library and not drawing?
August 6, 2012 10:21 p.m.
BrokenZygoma says... #10
And the reason you cant find a rule saying that you don't lose for not having cards in your library is because one doesn't exist. The only rule concerning an empty library is the one about drawing which results in a loss.
August 6, 2012 10:21 p.m.
BrokenZygoma says... #11
No you have to draw to lose. Just having an empty library does nothing. So a card like Necropotence would prevent loss from not having a library because you skip your draw step.
August 6, 2012 10:22 p.m.
Zzdragon23 says... #12
Alright, there, after some research and actually reading the rules book and such, it says the player will lose if he/she draws an empty library, so yes this does make a lot of sense, thank you for your patients with me! I shall create ways to get rid of those maniacs before the draw step. Again thank you!
BrokenZygoma says... Accepted answer #1
With Laboratory Maniac out, your opponent would win the game if he/she had to draw a card with 0 cards in their library. Milling is not drawing. So if you cast Increasing Confusion for 10U with flashback and your opponent had 15 cards in their library, you would mill the remaining cards directly to their graveyard. Then whenever that player would draw they would win unless you could get rid of Laboratory Maniac before their draw step.
August 6, 2012 9:49 p.m.