Karmic Guide
Asked by MrShhh 10 years ago
Karmic Guide has an "echo" cost that needs to be paid. From what I know, this cost looks for the card no matter where it is once it is played from your hand; I could be wrong about this.In any case, I am wondering if Karmic Guide is played, then an effect is use to bring it back to your hand before your next upkeep (or top of your library), does the "echo" cost still stay on the stack? In other words, looks for the Karmic Guide in your hand (library) and forces you to pay the cost or discard the card to your graveyard if you choose not to pay the echo cost.On another level, if the Karmic Guide comes into play, dies (graveyard0 & comes back into play, (let's say with Animate Dead ) before your next upkeep...is the "echo" cost still on the board & need to be paid?I hope I'm clear about my question; thanks.
Epochalyptik - Isn't it true for certain situation that the card is looked for no matter where it is and the effect needs to be taken "resolved".For example, a creature is to be exiled at the end of turn but somehow ends up somewhere else other than the battle-field, like your hand, graveyard or back to the library. At the end of turn, the effect of "exile at end of turn" has to be resolved? Thank again.
October 25, 2014 2:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
It's true that some abilities will look for cards in other zones, yes. For example, a commander "exiled" by Restoration Angel , but sent to the command zone instead will still return because the ability doesn't limit the effect to searching only in exile for that card.
However, you're missing something. Echo doesn't even trigger unless the card is a permanent because the ability is written on the card. It's not a delayed triggered ability that's set up ahead of time. It's just a normal triggered ability. Furthermore, it doesn't search in other zones because it specifies "permanent" (permanents only exist on the battlefield) and because you can only sacrifice permanents.
October 25, 2014 2:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik - I actually agree w/ your original answer; I was just wondering, for example, when a Sorcery spell brings a creature back from the graveyard that has "exile that creature at end of turn" as a part of the spell. In this particular case, I saw somewhere that if the creature targeted by such spell, ends up elsewhere before the end of turn, the effect of exiling the creature still happens; it will search out the creature no matter where it is, graveyard, hand, or library. So I wasn't sure if this also applied to Karmic Guide's echo cost, hence my original post. Thanks again for the answer.
October 25, 2014 2:52 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
Whatever you saw somewhere about that situation wasn't correct. If an object changes zones it becomes a brand new object. It has no relation to what it was before, minus a few exceptions that are in place to make certain effects work properly (none of them apply here). If the creature in your example leaves the battlefield before the end of the turn, the "that creature" referenced by the "exile that creature" effect no longer exists. That part of the effect will end up doing nothing.
October 25, 2014 6:01 p.m.
Rhadamanthus - I guess I was wrongly led to believe that in the example above about the "exile the creature at end of turn" would still occur whether the creature was still in play or elsewhere; had I known that it only works if the creature is still on the battlefield, then I would have known the answer to my original question; however, let me ask this now. If Karmic Guide or any other creature with echo is taken from the graveyard with a spell such as Animate Dead , the echo cost has to be paid since echo states "at the beginning of your upkeep, if this creature came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay it's echo cost". This states that no matter how it comes to the battlefield, the echo cost must be paid. Which also sounds like to me that the controller of Control Magic played on an echo creature would also force a payment of the echo cost or sacrifice. Is this true? Thanks for your answer.
October 25, 2014 8:55 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
Yes, that's how it works. If the Echo creature is on the battlefield at the beginning of its controller's upkeep, the ability checks the trigger condition: "this creature came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep". If the condition is true, it triggers. If not, it does nothing.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
No.
702.29a Echo is a triggered ability. "Echo [cost]" means "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]."
Because the card is no longer a permanent, the ability doesn't trigger. Echo is not a delayed triggered ability that is created when the permanent enters the battlefield. It's a regular triggered ability that is written on the permanent, and the permanent must therefore remain a permanent until the trigger event in order for the ability to trigger.
Furthermore, you can always opt not to pay the echo cost. If you bounce an echo permanent in response to its echo ability, you can opt not to pay the cost and you won't have to sacrifice anything because the echo card is no longer a permanent. You can only sacrifice permanents.
October 25, 2014 1:54 p.m.