Interaction between Marchesa, the Black Rose and "sacrifice at the beginning of the end step"

Asked by LadyTyche 2 years ago

I'm looking at making a commander deck using Marchesa, the Black Rose as my commander. Marchesa gives every other creature I control Dethrone: Dethrone (Whenever this creature attacks the player with the most life or tied for most life, put a +1/+1 counter on it.)

Plus she has the secondary ability: Whenever a creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it dies, return that card to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step.

Not certain there are other creatures with the same/similar mechanic but Hell's Thunder has: At the beginning of the end step sacrifice Hell's Thunder. Now I understand that once you attacked with Hell's Thunder it gains a +1/+1 counter because of Marchesa. Then at the beginning of the end step you can choose the order of the triggers. Normally you would sacrifice Hell's Thunder and then Marchesa would trigger and bring it back.

Since Hell's Thunder doesn't specify that you need to sacrifice it after casting would I need to sacrifice it again in the next end step, aka the other player's turn, or would this happen in the end step of my next turn (after I am able to use the dethrone ability again).

Thank you in advance!

Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1

With the way Hell's Thunder's ability is written, it does trigger at the beginning of every end step, including your opponents' end steps.

To be clear about how Hell's Thunder and Marchesa, the Black Rose interact:

  • Marchesa's last ability is a triggered ability with another delayed triggered ability inside of it. The main ability triggers "whenever a creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it dies", and it sets up a delayed triggered ability that triggers "at the beginning of the next end step"
  • If the main ability doesn't trigger, then the delayed trigger doesn't get set up
  • If Hell's Thunder dies before the beginning of the end step of the current turn and has a +1/+1 counter, Marchesa will set up the delayed trigger to return it at the beginning of this turn's end step. HT's own ability won't trigger this turn because it wasn't on the battlefield yet when the end step began. The next time will be the beginning of the next turn's end step
  • If HT is sacrificed to its own triggered ability and has a +1/+1 counter, Marchesa will set up the delayed trigger to return it at the beginning of the next turn's end step, because the beginning of this turn's end step has already passed (it's what caused HT's ability to trigger). When HT is brought back this way, it's own ability won't trigger on that turn for the same reason noted above
July 5, 2022 12:02 p.m.

Yesterday says... #2

There are a handful of cards, like Hell's Thunder and Underworld Breach, which use the term "the beginning of the end step," which functionally just means "at the beginning of each end step."

I haven't checked properly, but I think it's just put on cards that aren't expected to trigger more than once, similar the usage difference between "when" and "whenever".

July 6, 2022 2:12 p.m.

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