Infinite Combo question
Asked by The_Kazekyo 10 years ago
I was playing with my friend when i activated an infinite combo, i explained how it worked by activating it the first time then i declared that the process would be repeated a thousand times, after i done all that he declared a response to my combo by destroying the creature with an instant and said that by doing that he didn't suffer any damage from the combo, is that right? shouldn't he declare a response right after i explained how the combo works ? And shouldn't he at least suffer the damage from the first time i used the combo?
Epochalyptik says... #2
Yeah, it really depends on the combo itself and when your opponent interrupts/responds to it. The rule about shortcutting is that it only happens if all players agree to accept the shortcut, but if your opponent indicates that the first iteration goes off, then that single loop will happen.
October 27, 2014 7:39 p.m.
The_Kazekyo says... #3
i had a Triskelion along with a Mikaeus, the Unhallowed making him go infinite with undying.
October 27, 2014 9:20 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #4
And what did your opponent play to interrupt the combo?
October 27, 2014 9:34 p.m.
The_Kazekyo says... #5
i don't remember the name but it was a simple artifact removal i remember that all the text said was "destroy target artifact" it wasn't anything complex.
October 27, 2014 9:47 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #6
Well there are a few things here.
If it was an effect like Naturalize then your opponent can't beat Mikaeus/Triskelion. With Mikaeus, the Unhallowed out once Triskelion hits play what happens is you receive priority and begin the combo by removing a counter to plink a target. He now has a chance to respond, and if he tries to destroy Triskelion with an effect like Naturalize you can respond by removing the rest of the counters from Triskelion and Triskelion will be destroyed/undie as normal.
Now say it's Krosan Grip . If this is the case then he can destroy Triskelion as soon as he receives priority, the soonest he would have priority is after you remove a counter from Triskelion. Your target would take one damage and Triskelion would be destroyed with +1/+1 counters on it.
October 27, 2014 10 p.m.
The_Kazekyo says... #7
Let me see if i got this right: I initiate the combo, he casts a spell like Naturalize then before his spell resolves i have the chance to remove the remaining counters and make Triskelion kill itself before his spell resolves is that right? But if this is about priority the order would be: i activate the combo >> priority passes to him>> he casts Naturalize>> priority returns to me>> i activate the ability once again >> his Naturalize resolves. If that's the case then if he casts a spell and it resolves before i can remove the last counter he will disrupt the combo. And let's not forget about the order that the players talked, i iniciated the combo, explained how it worked told him that it could be repeated X times and that i would repeat it X times and he accepted and then and only then he cast the removal that's my second question if he already accepted the shortcutting he could still respond to the combo? This happened on a casual game so i didn't say anything but i'm asking now in case this happens on a tournament.
October 27, 2014 10:34 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... Accepted answer #8
Without counter magic, eliminating Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in response to casting Triskelion , or a Split-Second effect to remove either of them after Triskelion enters the battlefield, you cannot really interrupt the combo. Instant speed artifact removal without Split-Second won't cut it.
Triskelion resolves and you, the active player, have priority.
You activate Triskelion's ability. Your opponent has a chance to respond and casts Naturalize targeting Triskelion.
Naturalize is now on the stack and you have a chance to respond. You do so by activating Triskelion again. Priority goes around again and you can activate Triskelion again. The stack now looks like this:
-Triskelion Activation
-Triskelion Activation
-Naturalize
-Triskelion Activation
When Naturalize resolves Triskelion has no +1/+1 counters on it. You don't need to destroy it with its own ability, but you can if you like. If you do Triskelion will be destroyed by lethal damage prior to Naturalize resolving and Naturalize will fizzle now that its only target is gone. Once both Mikaeus and Triskelion are in play there is no point at which removal without Split-second can stop it because you can always remove counters/undie in response and put lethal damage on the stack.
Although, if you are forced to put everything on the stack "in response" then it does open you up to damage reversal/prevention tricks. That's why you typically wait for these effects to resolve one at a time.
October 27, 2014 10:56 p.m.
The_Kazekyo says... #9
I understood what you said but what i said in the last post was what if he casts right after the first activation then instead of what you said:-Triskelion Activation-Triskelion Activation-Naturalize-Triskelion Activation Wouldn't i have this ?-Triskelion Activation-Naturalize-Triskelion Activation-Naturalize Resolves-Third Triskelion Activation made impossible because he is now dead.
Or does the Naturalize only resolve after i stop responding?I'm sorry, this whole stack and priority thing always got me a little lost when it comes to responding actions XD.
October 27, 2014 11:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
First, you can retain priority and respond multiple times to a spell or ability. Second, the topmost spell or ability on the stack resolves only when all players pass priority in succession. Once the topmost spell or ability resolves, players pass priority again before the next object resolves. The stack doesn't all resolve at once.
October 27, 2014 11:51 p.m.
FancyTuesday The pedant in me demands that I point out that your stack and explanation don't match each other.
Your comment "Naturalize is now on the stack and you have a chance to respond. You do so by activating Triskelion again. Priority goes around again and you can activate Triskelion again" would mean that there's only one Triskelion
activation on the stack since "Priority goes around again" means that a priority pass round was made with everyone passing priority making the topmost item on the stack resolve.
To make the kind of stack you showed the player controlling Triskelion
has to retain priority after activating the ability to activate it again.
Also for Naturalize
it doesn't really matter if you wait before removing the rest of the counters or not. Since removing the counter is the payment for the ability you do it before your opponent can respond. As a matter of fact retaining priority also gets you around Krosan Grip
since you can just clear all the counters straight away by retaining priority and then Triskelion
will die without counters and return to the battlefield.
Otherwise a good explanation.
October 28, 2014 3:53 a.m.
The_Kazekyo says... #12
Draugo the Triskelion ability must resolve with him targeting himself in the last counter for him to die, he is a 1/1 creature with 3 counters so if you remove all counters he does not die so Krosan Grip still breaks the combo BUT you can still remove all counters and let the Naturalize resolve allowing him to return with undying because that's the point of the combo so this combo can only be broken by split second, any other type of removal i can retain priority and leave him to die so now i know i could have saved my Triskelion because my friend used the removal and didn't allow me to respond he used it and resolved it right away.
October 28, 2014 1:56 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #13
Sorry, what I meant to say is "there is another round of priority" after the activation of the ability, which you as the active player have the option of retaining by acting first.
As to getting around Krosan Grip it would work as long as the active player makes it explicit that everything is happening in response to the previous action and thus never passing priority. You take priority after undying resolves and just remove every counter in response to the previous one, never passing priority until they're all gone. There would be no point at which the opponent could target Triskelion when it had +1/+1 counters on it. I had not thought about that but it works.
It's worth noting that with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed out Triskelion is a 2/2 when he has no +1/+1 counters on him, assuming there is no other effect altering his power and toughness.
October 28, 2014 11:15 p.m.
The_Kazekyo For the combo to work it doesn't matter if the Triskelion s ability resolves or not as long as it dies without +1/+1 counters. You just have to point enough damage to it (in the case of this combo two activations) for the Triskelion to die and everything else can go to your opponent. Now if your opponent just kills the Triskelion with Krosan Grip you're already fulfilling the "dying without counters" part since you already took out all of the counters. All the rest of the activations will ping your opponent and Triskelion will return to battlefield because of undying. For this combo there's absolutely no difference between Naturalize and Krosan Grip as long as you remember to say that you're holding priority. This combo can not be broken by split second removal if you know what you're doing.
FancyTuesday says... #1
Could you please link to the specific cards in question? These interactions often depend on specific wordings and it's hard to say for certain with this ambiguity.
To link to a card use double square brackets around a card name. See the formatting tips page here if you have any questions about linking.
October 27, 2014 7:26 p.m.