Increasing Vengeance and Riku - goes infinite?
Asked by Polaris 13 years ago
Increasing Vengeance with flashback makes two copies of a spell. If I copy it (here with Riku of Two Reflections) does the copy have the regular casting mode or the flashback mode? I ask because if it's the latter, you can make infinite copies of any instant or sorcery for an extra 3URRR. I think that's how it works, but it seems too good to be true so I thought I'd ask.
OmegaSerris says... #2
But doesn't coping a spell copy everything about it? Such as Kicker costs. Kicker spells say "If ~ was kicked, do X" but copies aren't cast from your hand, so they can't be kicked individually. It just copies that element from the original spell. And I know at least kickers work this way as it is in the Zendikar FAQ as such.
I'm not saying this example applies here, maybe it is something else entirely. I just can't find any direct rule references, so I'd like a bit of clarification, too.
February 2, 2012 10:16 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
Yes, copies include the choices made for the original, but not any other special qualities. Copies of a spell that weren't cast don't count as being cast just because the original was, otherwise Eye of the Storm, Hive Mind, etc. would cause an infinite loop the second someone cast a spell. Because the copy wasn't cast from a graveyard, that special part of the effect won't kick in.
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
February 2, 2012 10:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
Rhadamanthus is correct.
An effect which says you copy a spell does NOT cause you to cast that spell unless it specifically states that you do (it must use the word cast).
When you cast Increasing Vengeance, you are given the option to copy it with Riku of Two Reflections's triggered ability. If you do, you get two copies of Increasing Vengeance. The copied one will be of the same wording as the original. Thus, if the original was flashed back, the copy will also give you two of the targeted spell.
However, the copy made by Increasing Vengeance isn't actually cast, so it won't trigger Riku's ability. You can't go infinite with this.
February 3, 2012 1:17 a.m.
would you not be able to copy the original spell with the copy?
February 5, 2012 10:05 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
Epochalyptik, I just noticed your answer from earlier says the copy of Increasing Vengeance made by Riku will also be "increased", but that's not true. The Increasing spells don't say "if the flashback cost was paid", they say "if this was cast from a graveyard", and that quality isn't a copiable value, as per the 706.2 I quoted in one of my responses.
I think mimouroto is suggesting that you use the Riku copy of Increasing Vengeance to target the original Vengeance in an attempt to get the "increased" effect. This still doesn't work, because the "cast from a graveyard" quality isn't copied.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
The copy wasn't cast from a graveyard (it wasn't cast from anywhere!), so your vengeance will go sadly unincreased.
February 2, 2012 8:54 p.m.