If I kick a Rite of Replication on a Master Biomancer, how many counters do they all get?
Asked by aepokh 12 years ago
For the sake of simplicity, let's assume I control exactly one Master Biomancer with no +1/+1 counters on it, at which time I kick Rite of Replication on it. Since they'll all "see" each other enter, each Biomancer will be seen by five other 2/4 Biomancers, and thus enter with ten +1/+1 counters... so they'll enter as 12/14 Biomancers seen by one 2/4 Biomancer and four 12/14 Biomancers, each of them making each other stronger as it enters the battlefield. It seems really counterintuitive for each Biomancer to indefinitely replace each other Biomancer's number of +1/+1 counters as they enter, but this is really throwing me off and I have no clue.
Or, if the Biomancers don't see each other enter, they'll all just get two +1/+1 counters and each subsequent creature I control will enter with 22 extra +1/+1 counters on it. But Rite of Replication rules that each token will trigger any abilities owned by each other token. BUT Master Biomancer's ability is a static ability, not a triggered ability, no?
The only thing I can see happening is that all five Biomancers will statically make each other into 2/4 creatures with +1/+1 counters on them. I know about the "three Oblivion Rings" thing, where if there are no other nonland permanents there'll be an involuntary infinite loop that... crashes the game? But since the Biomancer's ability is static and not triggered, everything happens at once without using the stack, so there's no "infinite loop", just an "infinite replacement" or something like that?
This reminds me of how I felt about having two Corpsejack Menaces on the field at once. I was very new to Magic when the card was released so I thought that they'd double each others forever and scavenging a Slitherhead would amount to infinity +1/+1 counters. My understanding of why this is false is only vague, but I know it revolves around the Menace's ability being a replacement effect (worded as "whenever ... instead") whereas Master Biomancer's ability is simply a static ability--it's not replacing anything.
Sorry for such a long-winded explanation, but I can't make heads or tails of any of this!
Intro to Discrete Math didn't prepare me for this!
Epochalyptik says... #2
*Edit, each Master Biomancer will get two +1/+1 counters. I forgot Master Biomancer gives counters equal to its power, not one per ability.
March 2, 2013 11:31 p.m.
Is every static ability really a replacement ability in disguise? Does Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite's ability "replace" my creatures' stats with bigger numbers?
March 3, 2013 12:29 a.m.
A replacement effect is a type of continuous effect. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite's is not a replacement effect, but a different kind of continuous effect. Her ability is a power/toughness-changing effect.
Also, to support Epochalyptik's answer, here is the appropriate CR rule statement:
614.5. A replacement effect doesnt invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
March 3, 2013 12:48 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
A replacement effect is any effect that would modify an event. Static buffs are not replacement effects; they are continuous effects.
From the CR:
Replacement Effect
A kind of continuous effect that watches for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replaces that event with a different event. See rule 614, Replacement Effects.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
Each Master Biomancer gets only one +1/+1 counter.
Master Biomancer has a replacement effect that modifies how creatures enter the battlefield. The effect can't apply until Master Biomancer itself is on the battlefield, at which time the event it would replace has already happened. Each Master Biomancer will get a counter from the existing Master Biomancer, but not from any other Master Biomancer.
Corpsejack Menace also has a replacement ability. Replacement abilities aren't triggered, they just apply to the event when it would happen. They only apply to a given event once if possible.
March 2, 2013 11:30 p.m.