If a spell has an invalid target does it still go through?
Asked by oltskul 14 years ago
Hi, Ive got bit general question, in my Hive Five Pact deck I am playing Hive Mind and pacts : Intervention Pact , Pact of Negation , Pact of the Titan , Slaughter Pact and card:Summoner's Pact BUT Intervention Pact and Slaughter Pact are targeting stuff. So what happens, if I cast one of these two pacts: 1. everyone copies that spell ie:Slaughter Pact 2. every one chooses new target, for example:on battle field is only one Red creatur and ten Black. 3. Who kills the creature first? 4. If the second player can target anything. Does he has to pay the Cost next upkeep?
And how does it works with Counter spells?
IF you're playing 1 on 1:
If there was only 1 non-black creature, your opponenet would get to destroy the creature because when you cast the spell, your spell goes on the stack first, then your OP's copy is placed on the stack. OP's leaves the stack first so the copy destroys the creature.
However, you both would still have to pay the 2B because when you play the spell and your OP copies it, the 2B is another effect of the card being played so even if the target is gone, the other effect still goes through.
In Multiplayer, however, I have NO idea who would get to destroy the creature, but they'd all have to pay the mana cost or lose.
January 24, 2011 3:41 p.m.
yeah, and same is for the Negation pact, isnt it?
thank ouy:)
January 24, 2011 4:17 p.m.
It should be the same yes.
I don't know the official rules but that is what I believe happens.
January 24, 2011 4:40 p.m.
I'm going to disagree with Leafs_suck. Yes, your opponent's copy of the spell will go on the stack on top of yours and resolve first. But if the target of the spell leaves play before your spell resolves, the spell fizzles and you do not have to pay the cost. Any time a spell loses all of its targets before it resolves, the spell fizzles with no effect.
In multiplayer, I believe the priority order would cause each person in turn order, starting with you, to copy their spell, causing whoever took their turn before you to be the one to cast the spell and have to pay the cost. This I'm not entirely certain on, so I'd ask for a second opinion.
January 24, 2011 4:44 p.m.
Now that I read it over, Crothselm might be right. This is a nightmare scenario >_>
January 24, 2011 4:47 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #7
This scenario is just one more reason for me to fall in love with Magic all over again.
Haha.
I will also agree with Crothselm though. The way priority shifts is in the order that play is going. So that will put each of those spell copies on the stack in that particular order, with each person choosing their targets in that order and each spell resolving with the how they are ordered on the stack.
So as complicated as it sounds, it actually isn't too bad once all of the bitching and moaning of the players involved dies down. hehe.
Good good stuff.
January 24, 2011 5:40 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #8
This is really hard, I'm reading several rules:
"608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target thats no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word target, are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. However, if any of its targets are illegal, the part of the spell or abilitys effect for which it is an illegal target cant perform any actions on that target or make that target perform any actions. The effect may still determine information about illegal targets, though, and other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them."
"608.2c The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, Destroy target creature. It cant be regenerated or Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owners library instead of into its owners graveyard.) Dont just apply effects step by step without thinking in these casesread the whole text and apply the rules of English to the text."
I give up on trying to make sense of this, I think that since it is a seperate clause of the spell, which dictates the cost payed during the next upkeep, that only the creature destruction or counterspell portion of the spell is countered. So, everyone has to pay the cost next upkeep.
But, I could quite possibly be wrong on this.
January 24, 2011 6:49 p.m.
The trick here is that the spell is losing its only target. Rule 608.2b says "The spell or ability is countered if all its targets...are now illegal" but goes on to say things about the effects of a spell still affecting its non-illegal targets. What this simply means is if a spell loses every one of its targets, the entire spell is countered. If a spell has multiple targets, like Decimate , and one of its targets becomes illegal, it still affects every other target.
oltskul says... #1
sorry, istead of Intervention Pact I meant Pact of Negation is targeting stuff.
January 24, 2011 3:28 p.m.