How does this combat work?
Asked by -Logician 8 years ago
So my creatures are The Wretched, Windscouter, Belligerent Sliver, and a Balduvian Warlord. I also control the enchantments Brave the Sands and Raging River.
My opponent controls the creatures Rashka the Slayer, Wall of Nets, Wall of Glare, and three Orcish Conscripts.
So we enter combat on my turn, I cast Formation on Windscouter and attack with everything banding Windscouter to Belligerent Sliver. Then raging river triggers, and my opponent chooses a side of the river to put his creatures, and put two Orcish Conscripts on the left, and the rest on the right, and then I choose to put my Belligerent Sliver and The Wretched on the left, and the other two on the right.
Then I cast Camouflage. So my opponent puts one Orcish Conscripts from the left and one from the right in one pile, the other Orcish Conscripts on the left and a Rashka the Slayer in another pile, and the walls in a third pile, and then I think there's one empty pile because there are four attackers, but I'm not sure because two of my attackers are attacking as a band and have to be blocked as a group. We put a fourth pile empty anyway. After randomizing, the first pile is put in front of The Wretched, the second pile is put in front of Windscouter, the third pile is put in from of Belligerent Sliver, and the fourth empty pile is put in front of Balduvian Warlord.
Since my Balduvian Warlord has vigilance from Brave the Sands, I decide to remove the Orcish Conscripts in the first pile on the right side of the river from combat, because why not.
So. What happens now? It's kind of a head scratcher.
Did this actually happen? Or are you just trying to give people a headache?
July 1, 2015 4:17 a.m.
For starters, the updated version of Camouflage can only be cast before you declare attackers, so that whole part of the question is pointless.
Full oracle text:
Cast Camouflage only during your declare attackers step.This turn, instead of declaring blockers, each defending player chooses any number of creatures he or she controls and divides them into a number of piles equal to the number of attacking creatures for whom that player is the defending player. Creatures he or she controls that can block additional creatures may likewise be put into additional piles. Assign each pile to a different one of those attacking creatures at random. Each creature in a pile that can block the creature that pile is assigned to does so. (Piles can be empty.)
Also, the reminder text clearly states that piles can be empty, so you were right about that bit.
July 1, 2015 4:28 a.m.
TheRedMage says... Accepted answer #4
This question is basically a collection of some of the most complicated cards from Magic history all coming to play together and really smells like a troll. I can clarify a few things though.
When you attack the situation is:
- Left of the river: Belligerent Sliver and The Wretched attacking Orcish Conscripts A and Orcish Conscripts B
- Right of the river: Windscouter and Balduvian Warlord attacking Orcish Conscripts C, Rashka the Slayer, Wall of Nets, Wall of Glare
Camouflage gets cast. The following piles are created:
- Pile 1: Orcish Conscripts A and C
- Pile 2: Orcish Conscripts B and Rashka the Slayer
- Pile 3: Wall of Nets and Wall of Glare
- Pile 4: Empty
Bands are not "blocked as a group" when you declare blockers. You block each creature individually, and then each creature that blocks one of the creatures in a band is automatically assigned to block each creature in the band. Therefore there are four attackers for the purpose of Camouflage and you are right in making a fourth empty pile.
That also means you can resolve Camouflage as if no creatures were banded, and then apply the "banding effect" to the blockers.
This is how the piles are assigned:
- Pile 1: The Wretched
- Pile 2: Windscouter
- Pile 3: Belligerent Sliver
- Pile 4: Balduvian Warlord
Camouflage is set in such a way that it cannot create an illegal block. That means that it will keep into account blocking restrictions when deciding what block what, including the one created by Raging River. You will create the piles, and then for each attacker the creatures in the corresponding pile will block it if able. That means the resulting blocks are:
- Windscouter: Pile 2 has Rashka the Slayer, which is on the right side of the river, and an Orcish Conscripts which is on the wrong side. Windscouter will end up being blocked and eaten by Rashka the Slayer, since she'll get the +1/+2 bonus when she blocks.
- Belligerent Sliver: Because of how piles were made, it's impossible for Belligerent Sliver to get any blockers. Belligerent Sliver Needs to be blocked by two creatures, and no pile has two creatures from the left side of the river. This includes Pile 3, which the sliver was assigned, which actually has two creatures both from on the opposite side.
- Balduvian Warlord: Pile 4 has no blockers, so nothing to see here.
- The Wretched: The only candidate here is Orcish Conscripts A, since C is on the opposite side of the river. However, it's impossible for Orcish Conscripts A to block The Wretched, since the only other blocking creature is Rashka the Slayer. Therefore, this will also go unblocked.
At this point Banding cuts in and does its job, so Rashka the Slayer goes from blocking only Windscouter to blocking Windscouter and Belligerent Sliver.
Because Orcish Conscripts C is not blocking, you cannot target it with Balduvian Warlord's ability. The only legal target for that ability is Rashka the Slayer.
This should answer everything you asked, but if you still have doubts go ahead and ask.
July 1, 2015 4:35 a.m. Edited.
TheRedMage says... #5
Correction: Rashka the Slayer will not necessarily eat Windscouter because of banding. You can decide to assign all damage from the blocker to Belligerent Sliver, saving your flier.
July 1, 2015 4:42 a.m.
As for the bit about Balduvian Warlord.
Raging River sets up a an evasion ability for each of your attacking creatures (that they can't be blocked by non-flying creatures that aren't in the same side chosen for them), which in turn creates a blocking restriction for your opponents creatures.
So if you were to activate Balduvian Warlords on a non-flying creature your opponent controls in the LEFT pile, then when it came time to choose the creature you're changing it's block to, only creatures in the LEFT pile would be legal choices (you can never choose an illegal choice.)
Note that this only works this way because Balduvian Warlord's ability doesn't target the creature you assign your opponent's creature to block, but rather has you choose on resolution. This is similar to how you are allowed to target an indestructible non-black creature with Doom Blade, but cannot choose an indestructible creature for Porphyry Nodes if it is tied for the least power on the board.
July 1, 2015 4:55 a.m.
The-Xellos says... #9
@TheRedMage doesn't your opponent have the choice of what creature the damage of Rashka the Slayer goes not you?
July 1, 2015 11:31 a.m.
@The-Xellos, Not if they're in a band, then you decide the damage distribution.
July 1, 2015 11:50 a.m.
The-Xellos says... #11
No wonder they wanted to get rid of banding. Thanks for letting me know sonnet666, going to put some banding in my commander deck. Is there a sliver out there that bands :P
July 1, 2015 12:07 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #12
@ sonnet666, concerning Balduvian Warlord: The ability does not specify that blocking restrictions are to be applied (like Camouflage does). That makes me think that if you use Balduvian Warlord to move a blocker (in this case Rashka the Slayer) around you can ignore blocking restrictions.
I know blocking restrictions don't matter when you are swapping things around with General Jarkeld. I am not so sure about Balduvian Warlord but I can find no reason why you would need to still care about blocking restrictions. This thread seems to support my theory but I am at this time unable to quote the rules paragraph that would prove this conclusively.
Boza says... #1
First, my question would be could we not use cards that were printed when I was not old enough to attendend even elementary school?
My second question would why would casting Camouflage rearrange the blockers. It has everything to do with the attackers and nothing to do with the defense?
July 1, 2015 4:08 a.m.