Extra Combat + Dueling Grounds
Asked by Minathia 12 years ago
Hi guys. I'm a level one, and had two level twos in an EDH game when both Finest Hour and Dueling Grounds happened to be on the field. We all had a different opinion on what happened.
Question: Can a single and specific creature attack in both combat phases?
Factors:1: There are no errata's or orcle updates for either card.2: There is no additional information on either card's gatherer page.
Two outcomes we came to:1: The creature is identified and remembered at the first combat when attacking, and is allowed to attack an unlimited amount of times assuming unlimited combat phases.2: The player is only allowed do declare a single attacking creature once. This effect is not a "until end of turn."
While I welcome all discussion, I am looking for some of the heavy hitters to weigh in on this. You know who you are. :) Any links to sources are prefered.
Good Luck!Mina
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
Dueling Grounds states that no more than one creature may attack each turn, not that only one attack may be declared a turn. If you attack with a creature during the first combat phase of the turn and resolve Finest Hour 's ability, only the creature that attacked the first combat phase will be eligible to attack in the second one.
October 18, 2012 2:42 p.m.
I fully agree. Dueling Grounds only stipulates that one creature may attack or block each turn, but it doesn't limit how many times that creature can attack or block. Really brutal in combination with Finest Hour , especially if you kill or nullify that 1st defender so he can't even block the 2nd combat swing.
Would be super fun using something like Markov Blademaster in this scenario.
October 18, 2012 5:25 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
I also agree. As long as the creature who attacked in the first Combat phase didn't become a new object by changing zones, attacking with it again during a subsequent Combat phase won't break the restriction of "Only one creature can attack this turn".
I hope for your opponent's sake he's able to pick a good blocker.
October 18, 2012 5:59 p.m.
Echo 3
In addition, since it's multiplayer, you can choose to attack another opponent during the additional combat phase and that opponent can't block if a creature had been declared as a blocker in the first combat phase.
October 18, 2012 9:53 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
That's a really weird result. In a multiplayer game, the rules say you ignore "creatures attacking other players and blocking creatures controlled by other players" when determining whether a block is legal, but it looks like that exception fails if there aren't any other "blocking" creatures.
October 18, 2012 11:55 p.m.
From my understanding, I would believe that the rules you've mentioned refer to legality of blocking in terms of evasive abilities and any other creature ability restrictions imposed, eg. a group of creatures attacking Opponent A with Pyreheart Wolf in it will have blocking restrictions, but another group attacking Opponent B at the same time without Pyreheart Wolf will not have the restrictions.
But that's just my understanding. Do correct me if it's wrong.
October 19, 2012 3:31 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
If the game only wanted you to ignore the abilities of those other creatures, the rules would specify that. As written, you ignore the other creatures completely, which means you don't need to have an argument or make a deal with your opponents when it's time to block under a Silent Arbiter , or Dueling Grounds .
October 19, 2012 7:48 a.m.
Yep, I think I've misunderstood what you've written regarding "ignoring other creatures" during an attack motion and went off into another direction.
Weird thing is, and probably just thinking aloud here: assuming the same scenario of Finest Hour paired with Dueling Grounds , if player A's Geist of Saint Traft attacks player B and the 4/4 angel token is put into play attacking player C, and both player B and player C block GoST and the angel token in the first combat phase, how shall we determine which creatures can block then in the second combat phase, assuming both blocking creatures stayed alive?
I would say that those that have been declared as blockers are eligible to block again, only if they are the only blocking creatures from each defending opponent. Any other players would not be able to block at all.
Hmm...
October 20, 2012 6:20 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
You've overlooked something important: it is impossible for both B and C to block. Only one creature may block each combat. Total. Dueling Grounds doesn't say "each opponent may block with only one creature each combat."
October 20, 2012 6:23 p.m.
Although only one creature may block in each combat, when validating the legality of the block, the rules stated are to ignore other attacking/blocking creatures in multiplayer.
Therefore, from the understanding of that rule, in this scenario, players B and C both have individual game states in which their blocking creatures are the only ones blocking, since player B's state ignores player C's state, and the other way around.
This is an interesting scenario to consider. I'll post it up to see what others have to say.
October 20, 2012 6:34 p.m.
Ok, nevermind, I stand corrected.
802.4. If more than one player is being attacked or controls a planeswalker thats being attacked, each defending player in APNAP order declares blockers as the declare blockers step begins. (See rule 101.4 and rule 509, Declare Blockers Step.) The first defending player declares all his or her blocks, then the second defending player, and so on.
It seems like the first defending player in turn order gets to block, and all the rest get to do squat.
October 20, 2012 6:43 p.m.
*The rest of the defending players get to do squat once a blocker has been declared.
October 20, 2012 6:44 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
802.4b When determining whether a defending players blocks are legal, ignore any creaturesattacking other players and any blocking creatures controlled by other players.
That seems counterintuitive, although I understand the logic behind it.
Minathia says... #1
Also wtb a preview for asking questions. Damn you formatting!!! >:(
October 18, 2012 2:35 p.m.