Can people activate Lethal Vapors with Greater Auramancy out?

Asked by ccmaci 6 years ago

I've been looking at Lethal Vapors for a while, trying to find ways people won't be able to destroy it. But then I realized Greater Auramancy gives it shroud.

If I was to have Greater Auramancy on the battlefield, then play Lethal Vapors, would anyone be able to activate Lethal Vapors' ability?

Neotrup says... #1

Yes, anyone will be able to activate Lethal Vapors's ability. Shroud only prevents targeting, and nothing about the ability targets so it will be uneffected.

July 20, 2017 2:16 a.m.

ccmaci says... #2

But isn't Lethal Vapors targeting itself? Let me explain.

Yes, the ability doesn't have the wording "target" in it, but can't "Destroy Lethal Vapors" be translated to "Destroy this enchantment named Lethal Vapors". "This" is in the meaning of "itself", not just any enchantment on the battlefield named Lethal Vapors, but the card with the ability of which is being activated. "Itself" can replace every bolded word in the above phrase and still have the same meaning. "Itself" is a pronoun. Pronouns are meant to be replacements of nouns but not permanently replace the name of the noun. For example: "I cast a spell on him" (the italicized word being the pronoun). Going back to the phrase "Destroy Lethal Vapors", you can say "This ability makes you destroy this enchantment" (remember that "this" is in the form of itself, though not being grammatically correct if I was to replace "this" with "itself", both words would still have the same meaning). "You destroy" by itself is a verb phrase incomplete. Verbs must target nouns or pronouns. An example of the correct way to put a verb phrase in a sentence is as followed: "I ran to her" (bolded being the verb phrase and italicized being the pronoun of which is being targeted by the verb phrase). Neotrup, if you are to say nothing of this ability targets, then how is it this verb is to be fulfilled without it being an incomplete sentence? In my mind, the verb phrase "you destroy" targets the pronoun "itself". With the pronoun "itself" being Lethal Vapors, this would mean it is being targeted, leading Greater Auramancy negating the resolving of this ability. The combo would work if I am to be correct.

I'm sorry you had to read that, I just don't want to give up on this being a combo just yet. If what I said was confusing, reread it the best you can and rebuttal what I said if you don't believe me. I will read all counter arguments and if one is able to disprove my standpoint, I will accept the answer and not grudge on with trying to prove myself right.

(All facts on verbs, nouns, and pronouns were double checked online)

July 20, 2017 3:20 a.m.

While I commend your tenacity, that's not how the game or rules work.

114.1c An activated ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is activated; see rule 602.2b.

Never does the game or cards imply it's targeting something without explicitly using the word "target" in its text.

July 20, 2017 5:20 a.m.

Also:

202.2. Text that refers to the object it's on by name means just that particular object and not any other duplicates of it, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.

July 20, 2017 5:21 a.m.

BlueScope says... #5

As a reminder in addition to what Raging_Squiggle said: Ability texts and keyword abilities that have target in their rules text, but lack the word "target" printed on the card itself. Most famously, that would apply to Auras (a card with "Enchant creature" targets a creature).

Also, foreign languages are sometimes weird about targetting. For example, the German phrase for "target" and "choose" are identical, so you have to look up the rules text more often than not.

July 20, 2017 6:09 a.m.

Colgate says... Accepted answer #6

No, you don't need to be fluent english grammar guru to understand the game. 114.1a-114.1e explains all instances of target quite simply.

114.1a: An instant or sorcery spell is targeted if its spell ability identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. (If an activated or triggered ability of an instant or sorcery uses the word target, that ability is targeted, but the spell is not.)

114.1b: Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura's target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, "Enchant"). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn't target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)

114.1c: An activated ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is activated; see rule 602.2b.

114.1d: A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack; see rule 603.3d.

114.1e: Some keyword abilities, such as equip and provoke, represent targeted activated or triggered abilities. In those cases, the phrase "target [something]" appears in the rule for that keyword ability rather than in the ability itself. (The keyword's reminder text will often contain the word "target.") See rule 702, "Keyword Abilities."

These rules do not tell about other cases, whether all of them do not target or are there some that target, but other cases do not target. I wish rules would make it clear by adding something riko "These are the only cases, which target." or replacing 'if's with 'iff's moving 114.1e to 114.1a-d.

July 20, 2017 7:16 a.m.

Colgate says... #7

And yes they can target

July 20, 2017 7:16 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #8

As others have explained, the game works in a very literal fashion. A card does what it says, no more and no less. This is to prevent confusion and to minimize the amount of interpretation needed to figure out exactly what a card does and how it will interact with other cards and the rules of the game. Lethal Vapors' 2nd ability doesn't target anything, so shroud won't interfere with it.

Sometimes the text of an older card will need to be updated to put it in line with the current templating conventions for rules text. If you ever have a question that hinges on the exact wording of a card, you can check the official "Oracle" text in its Gatherer entry.

July 20, 2017 9:50 a.m.

ccmaci says... #9

Thank you to Rhadamanthus, Colgate, and Raging_Squiggle for your help. All comments by you guys answered my question.

Rip combo xD

July 20, 2017 1:49 p.m.

If you want a combo, try Lethal Vapors and Pithing Needle.

July 20, 2017 4:46 p.m.

ccmaci says... #11

Well then, that'll work xD

July 20, 2017 5:07 p.m.

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