Can Artisan of Forms copy a Planeswalker?
Asked by thegigibeast 10 years ago
On your side of the field, you have a Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. It is your turn and you use is +1 to turn him into a dragon. You attack me with it. On my side of the field, I have an Artisan of Forms. I use an instant (ex. Titan's Strength) targetting him, and I choose to copy your dragon-planeswalker. What will happen with my Artisan of Forms? Will it stay a dragon or turn back into the planeswalker after?
thegigibeast says... #2
But let's say I also have a Teferi, Temporal Archmage and I managed to ultimate him, I would be able to put a loyalty counter and keep the planeswalker?
January 1, 2015 10:32 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
No. A planeswalker dying for having 0 loyalty counters is one of the state-based-actions (SBAs), like a creature dying for 0 or less toughness. SBAs are checked and executed right before each time a player would get priority, so the Artisan-Sarkhan would die before you get to use the +1 ability.
January 1, 2015 11:33 p.m.
superkamiguru7506 says... #4
I relies you'd have to sack one but wouldFated Infatuationwork
January 2, 2015 12:16 a.m.
superkamiguru7506 says... #5
Ok let me correct myself put one in the graveyard I don't think itcounts as sacking
January 2, 2015 12:24 a.m.
Because Planeswalkers have loyalty counters equal to their printed loyalty put on them when they enter the battlefield. They don't actually "have" any counters on them just because they have a printed loyalty.
January 2, 2015 9:37 a.m.
To answer all of these: The moment Artisan of Forms copies Sarkhan, it has 0 loyalty counters and is put into the graveyard because that's what happens when a planeswalker has no loyalty counters. It has 0 because the "put this many loyalty counters on this planeswalker" thing only happens as the planeswalker enters the battlefield; the Artisan is already on the battlefield. This is why, for example, Clever Impersonator can copy a planeswalker and live (because it is entering the battlefield so it starts with the appropriate loyalty counters).
From the Artisan becoming a planeswalker to it dying, nobody has a chance to cast spells or activate abilities. You can't copy with with Fated Infatuation or use one of its loyalty abilities thanks to Teferi, Temporal Archmage to put a counter on it. It is simply put into the grave. This is not considered a sacrifice.
January 2, 2015 9:41 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
@:thegigibeast: Like I said earlier, the Artisan of Forms becomes a planeswalker when it copies Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, not a creature. A planeswalker with 0 loyalty is put into the graveyard as a state-based action.
@Colten_Lee: The number of counters on an object isn't copiable. Like I said earlier, a copy effect just copies whatever is written on the original, plus the result of any other copy effects the original is currently subject to. Also, because Artisan of Forms isn't entering the battlefield as a copy of Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, it isn't given the starting loyalty counters.
January 2, 2015 11:02 a.m.
superkamiguru7506 says... #11
Ok I don't get why you think Fated Infatuation wouldn't work. sarkhan is a creature when it's targeted, so the targets valid and the problem withArtisan of Forms is it won't get counters because Its not entering the battlefield, so it doesn't get the four on the card. The token is entering the battle field so why wouldn't it work
January 2, 2015 12:02 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
@superkamiguru7506: Fated Infatuation can't make a copy of Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker in this situation. If you cast Infatuation on Artisan of Forms before it turns into Sarkhan, then you just get an Artisan token. If you wait until after Artisan changes into Sarkhan, it will be dead for 0 loyalty before you can cast Infatuation (and it wasn't a legal target anyway, because it was a planeswalker, not a creature). You can't cast Infatuation targeting your opponent's Sarkhan because it specifically says "target creature you control".
January 2, 2015 1:58 p.m.
superkamiguru7506 says... #13
Wow I didn't read the original post right I was thinking he had a sarkhan and was trying to copy his own.
January 2, 2015 4:14 p.m.
Colten_Lee says... #14
Okay, when you said the printed qualities I was like its printed with loyalty counters. But the entering the battlefield and already being on the battlefield part makes sense.
January 2, 2015 10:51 p.m.
Yeah, Planeswalkers aren't printed "with loyalty counters" but with an indicator which essentially attaches to a static ability that modifies how they enter the battlefield.
January 3, 2015 1:43 p.m.
well from what i see artisan forms couldnt turn into the dragon without killing him because theyre both legendary creatures so....
January 3, 2015 3:08 p.m.
Two different players can control a legendary permanent with the same name just fine. It is just if a single player has multiple legendary permanents with the same name that they need to get rid of all but one of them.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
A copy effect just copies whatever is written on the original, plus the results of any other copy effects the original is currently subject to, and that's it. Your Artisan of Forms will turn into a regular planeswalker Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker with no loyalty counters... which is not a good thing.
January 1, 2015 10:29 p.m.