Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter
Asked by Arachnarchist 13 years ago
If I have both a Leonin Arbiter and an Aven Mindcensor , what would happen when someone needs to search their library?
Would they just use the top 4 cards as the Mindcensor says, or would they have to pay (2) to search their top 4?
Rhadamanthus says... #2
Miasma is right. As long as Leonin Arbiter is standing in the way, a library search event can't happen, so there's nothing for Aven Mindcensor 's replacement effect to be applied to (so it can't happen either), and if someone pays to make the Arbiter step aside, then the Aven's replacement effect will kick in.
December 6, 2011 1:49 p.m.
Something I learned awhile a go a good rule of thumb... when you have two rules that interact, or even contradict each other, CAN'T always supersedes CAN.
December 6, 2011 2:54 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #4
Actually djgunn, that is not always true, there are situations where you must use timestamp order. Not this one, and they are rare, but sometimes can supercedes can't. For a specific example, if someone put Cursed Rack onto the battlefield targetting you, and then afterwards you cast Reliquary Tower or Spellbook , your maximum hand size is unlimited. The other way around, it is 4.
December 6, 2011 3:23 p.m.
@KorApprentice: djgunn is actually correct. Any forced rule automatically comes before an optional rule. Your example is two forced rules in which case time stamp matters; it is not an interaction between a must and optional rule.
December 6, 2011 3:34 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
The hand size example isn't an example of "can" vs. "can't", because none of those effects are "can" or "can't" effects. For effects that actually use the words "can" or "can't" in their respective rules texts, djgunn is right.
101.2. When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can't happen, the "can't" effect takes precedence.
December 6, 2011 3:35 p.m.
I actually had to hit up gatherer to see the changed text for Cursed Rack . And, neither of those cards use the words "can" or "can't".
I'm being very specific in my use of those words. Like, Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor . The Mindcensor says they CAN search the top 4 of their library, however the Arbiter says they CAN'T (unless they pay).
I kind of understand what you're saying (unfortunately, time stamps in the game are still something I'm relatively unfamiliar with). Is there a two card example you can think of where one card explicitly states that one thing can happen, and the other card explicitly states it can't, and time stamps would affect the over all outcome of the interaction?
December 6, 2011 3:35 p.m.
I actually had to hit up gatherer to see the changed text for Cursed Rack . And, neither of those cards use the words "can" or "can't".
I'm being very specific in my use of those words. Like, Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor . The Mindcensor says they CAN search the top 4 of their library, however the Arbiter says they CAN'T (unless they pay).
I kind of understand what you're saying (unfortunately, time stamps in the game are still something I'm relatively unfamiliar with). Is there a two card example you can think of where one card explicitly states that one thing can happen, and the other card explicitly states it can't, and time stamps would affect the over all outcome of the interaction?
December 6, 2011 3:35 p.m.
Damnit. And I double posted. Thanks for the answers though!
December 6, 2011 3:36 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #10
Ah, I thought that you were using "can and can't" metaphorically, like with the hand size example. Thank you Rhadamanthus, I apologize for making you run around correcting my errors where they may be.
December 6, 2011 4:22 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
The way I see it, the point of the Q&A section makes clearing up inaccuracies in responses just as important as answering the original questions. Everyone learns something!
And don't be shy about correcting me, either, if you think I've made a mistake in my interpretations.
December 6, 2011 4:34 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #12
Wow, I just glanced at my rulebook and saw that 101.2 is one of the 'Golden Rules' of MTG. Don't I feel bad for forgetting it? :P
Miasma says... Accepted answer #1
First of all, it has to go through Leonin Arbiter . After, and only after they choose to pay 2 they then are able to search their library. But the Aven Mindcensor 's effect plays out, and only allows them to search the top 4 cards.
So essentially they have to pay 2 to search the top 4 cards of their library, or not a pay 2 and search nothing.
December 6, 2011 1:14 p.m.