+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, and the addition thereof.
Asked by Eboksba 10 years ago
A creature with persist dies. he gains a -1/-1 counter.A spell gives him a +1/+1 counter.
What happens?
Conversely,
A creature with Undying dies. He gains a +1/+1 counter.A spell gives him a +1/+1 counter.
Just need to know if they keep both counters separate or subtract them. Can you show me where in the rules this is if so? Thanks.
FancyTuesday says... Accepted answer #3
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other as a state based action as soon as a player would receive priority.
121.3 If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.
In the first case, the creature has a -1/-1 counter on it from "persisting" and a +1/+1 counter is added. Assuming no other state-based actions happen simultaneously both counters are then removed and you have a creature with no counters left on it.
In the 2nd case the creature has a +1/+1 counter on it from "undying" and another +1/+1 counter is added to it. It's now a creature with two +1/+1 counters on it.
September 26, 2014 4:17 p.m.
Mahvelous. Thanks, this makes a persist deck work with Simic overtones.
September 26, 2014 4:18 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #5
Above I mentioned "assuming no other state-based actions happen simultaneously," this is important because there's a special rule for multiple state-based actions if one of those actions results in that permanent leaving the battlefield.
Say for example your opponent casts Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and you have Glen Elendra Archmage and a Master Biomancer with a +1/+1 counter on it. Glen Elendra dies, persists, and when it returns to the battlefield it is a 0/0 with a +1/+1 and a -1/-1 counter on it. State based actions send Glen Elendra to the graveyard at the same time that they would remove the counters, so it's subject to a new rule:
704.7 If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanents last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
So when the game looks back at Glen before any state-based actions had taken place it sees the -1/-1 counter on her and she does not persist a second time.
This may seem contrived but I've been surprised at how often this comes up.
September 26, 2014 4:30 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #6
So first you would put the +1/+1 counter on, and THEN it would annihilate itself on a -1/-1 counter? Rather than just removing the -1/-1 counter in the first place and never actually going on the creature, yes?
BboyGeologic says... #1
State-based actions dictate that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters will make each other go "poof!". So your Persist guy will now have no counters of any kind on him and your Undying guy would now have 2 +1/+1 counters on him.
September 26, 2014 4:11 p.m.