Ravnican Guild Moral Alignment
Lore forum
Posted on Sept. 7, 2013, 12:03 p.m. by hochmaster
In my experience, I feel like each guild has a certain moral flavor to it (if not an outright alignment) and I have determined it to be this:
Dimir=neutral evil
Rakdos=chaotic evil
Orzhov=lawful evil
Golgari=true neutral
Simic=true neutral
Izzet=chaotic neutral
Gruul=chaotic neutral
Azorius=lawful good
Boros=chaotic good
Selesnya=neutral good
Thoughts?
hochmaster says... #3
Hmm, I thought about this, but the Golgari don't believe in a strict discipline, they just want to live forever off of those around them that die. They also have no real hierarchy, just Jarad barking out orders.
September 7, 2013 12:26 p.m.
hochmaster says... #4
On a side note, Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts has some pretty nice tits.
September 7, 2013 12:29 p.m.
This should go in the Lore forum.
The two major problems I see with this are that the color pie doesn't line up perfectly with alignments, and that the individual members of the guild may vary significantly. Selesnya, for example, wants everyone to conform to its idea of the greater good and join the worldsoul, but it would happily use a number of techniques (mind control, for example) that we would consider less than good to achieve that end.
September 7, 2013 12:30 p.m.
hochmaster says... #7
I am aware that Selesnya could do these things, but do they? I don't think they've done anything as Dimir-ey as mind control to make people conform... Also, Golgari isn't really THAT evil, I don't see them going around murdering people, just looting their corpses. All the guilds with the color black take something from their subjects: For the Rakdos, its their life, for the Dimir, its their sanity, for the Golgari, its their dead flesh, and for the Orzhov, its their money(and sometimes their corpse to make thrulls).
September 7, 2013 12:36 p.m.
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Svogthir
Golgari are pretty evil.
September 7, 2013 12:55 p.m.
hochmaster says... #9
Ok, yeah, necromancy is pretty evil... I was going off of the Scavenge mechanic, which isn't really necromancy as much as it is decomposition. So then, Golgari has to be evil, but the question remains: Neutral, Chaotic, or Lawful?
September 7, 2013 1 p.m.
I believe this system of categorizing doesn't really work for the guilds, it would be much like using this system to categorize the top 9 countries of the UN as each guild/country is really just a large group of people drawn together because of various factors and are loyal under the same banner.
Now what you can make work with this system is to categorize the guild leaders or champions.
September 7, 2013 1:03 p.m.
hochmaster says... #11
Yeah, I realized that this system doesn't work for the entirety of each guild, after reading all that Momir Vig/Project Kraj shit. Then again, it could just be the leaders of the guilds in the old ravnica set with the problem... For example, Azor basically contractually obligating Agrus Kos to serve the Azorius in death was some bullshit. I don't think Isperia or Aurelia would ever allow any of that crap, especially not Trostani, what with Rest in Peace (not marked as Selesnya, but it totally is) and all that.
September 7, 2013 1:15 p.m.
Its just hard to generalize all the guilds. Except for the Rakdos and Dimir, its seems like each guild can do good or evil.
See also this link (read the second paragraph after Afterlife):
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Agrus_Kos
Even the Azorius can be evil. :/
September 7, 2013 1:30 p.m.
hochmaster says... #13
After having read up on Jace's lore, I discovered that, for some reason, Jace, the Gruul clans, and Emmara Tandris are besties... The gruul liked Jace so much that they defended him from a Rakdos riot while he was searching Ruric Thar for memories that he had erased from his own mind. Now that's some empathy right there.
September 7, 2013 1:43 p.m.
lord_of_the_snakes says... #14
Epochalyptik, could you move this to lore, and i don't think boros would be chaotic good, maybe neutral good
September 7, 2013 2:30 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #15
I definitely wouldn't call the Boros legion chaotic. I would probably double them up with the Azorius as Lawful good. The closest any guild comes to being "chaotic good" would probably be the Izzet.
September 7, 2013 3:07 p.m.
hochmaster says... #16
Yeah, the Boros do have a strong sense of hierarchy, so I guess they can be chalked up as being the only true Lawful Good guild. I say that because the Azorius can be (and are) pretty evil sometimes because of all the spirits shackled to work for them. The Boros, to my knowledge, haven't ever done something like that, and actually uphold justice better than the Azorius ever have, what with Agrus Kos saving Ravnica three times, and the standing army that they provide.
September 7, 2013 3:20 p.m.
Going by the original story line, simic are definitely chaotic, whether neutral or evil I'm not sure. They're just psycho. Rakdos had to shut up experiment kraj to stop it enveloping the plane if I remember correctly
September 7, 2013 5:53 p.m.
It's also worth noting that the Azorius in the first Ravnica were the villains under Grand Arbiter Augustin IV with Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts being the protagonist. The Dimir were originally part of the guildpact to balance the other 9 guilds.
To me, it seems trying to categorization guilds under good, evil, or neutral doesn't fit. Demarge said it perfectly: each of the guilds is basically a country. It's hard to categorize an entire nation and all of its people as good or evil.
September 7, 2013 6:20 p.m.
hochmaster says... #19
Well, that may be true, but one thing is for sure:
The Boros have remained true to the archetypes that their colors fit; as fierce warriors that fight for good. They've never screwed up thus far, and I don't think they will.
September 7, 2013 7:30 p.m.
hochmaster says... #20
Also, despite Rakdos literally being the devil, I can appreciate him more for killing experiment kraj and throwing himself into a coma because of it.
September 7, 2013 7:32 p.m.
The Golgari aren't evil. Svogthir was an antagonist in the original Ravnica block storyline, but Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord was actually one of the protagonists of that storyline (but he was still alive, not a lich).
September 7, 2013 8:12 p.m.
The alignment system is borked anyways. Rakdos could be framed as lawful good if you change perspective, just as Boris is chaotic evil.
Rakdos as lawful good: lawful implies a credo or a code by which all members adhere to. The rakdos code is essentially seek pleasure, mortal law is meaningless, serve Lord Rakdos, and power is meant to be used. None of these things are inherently evil, or in other than D&d terms selfish. Seeking pleasure could mean orgy or it could mean hang yourself from meat hooks. Azorious law is so Byzantine that all people are violating it somewhere, so that's hardly selfish. Using accumulated power is not evil, it could be downright charitable.
September 8, 2013 12:41 a.m.
I would say
Golgari - Neutral Evil, in the RTR books they generally attacked anyone in their territory
Selesnya - Neutral Good, they looked out and only listened to each other, thus easily manipulated by lazav
Rakdos - Chaotic Evil, no explanation necessary
Dimir - Lawful Evil, dudes are just plain malicious
Simic - True Neutral, basically they emotionlessly do what they want when they want
Izzet, Chaotic Neutral, yep
Azorius, Lawful Neutral, they are the lawmakers so thats that they can be either good or evil
Boros, Neutral Good, they can go through all of they law stuff like the azorius, but they would rather just shoot first ask questions later
Gruul, Chaotic Neutral, just dumber than izzets kind of chaotic neutral
Orzhov, Lawful Evil, just pure greed and contracts
September 11, 2013 4:21 p.m.
hochmaster says... #24
September 11, 2013 5:50 p.m.
Breathing is good. Nicol Bolas breathes. Therefore, Nicol Bolas is good.
September 11, 2013 5:54 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #27
I agree with raithe000 here, liking pain isn't evil. I know plenty of masochists that are some of the best people I know in their moral alignment. Like, save kittens out of trees type of good.
September 11, 2013 6:09 p.m.
hochmaster says... #28
I think you're confusing "rakdos likes pain" with "rakdos likes". Missing that critical direct object there. Accurately, your answer should have been "Nicol bolas breathes (something bad). Smartass XD
September 11, 2013 6:09 p.m.
hochmaster says... #29
Deliberate and non-restorative self-harm that isn't for the sake of a fellow man is inherently evil. Aside from that, the rakdos seldom only harm themselves.
September 11, 2013 6:11 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #30
No, he got his point completely spot on, because Bolas breathes because he likes doing it. If he didn't, he'd find a way around doing it. Alternately, if you're trying to say that Rakdos likes CAUSING pain, then yeah, that's kind of evil, but Boros and Gruul could be called evil, to.
September 11, 2013 6:12 p.m.
hochmaster says... #31
Not saying your friend is evil, just saying that self-harm is evil in those contexts.
September 11, 2013 6:13 p.m.
hochmaster says... #32
Having a good habit does not make you a good person. Nicol bolas is still evil, despite his healthy habit of breathing. Causing harm is not evil necessarily; the gruul only fight if defending or challenged, and the boros only fight in defense of their plane.
September 11, 2013 6:16 p.m.
hochmaster says... #33
Also, the boros and gruul like to fight, not cause harm.
September 11, 2013 6:17 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #34
At no point in your first post did you actually say he was going and causing pain. I realize he does, but there is nothing wrong with pain. I've reveled in pain before, to be honest.
Does fighting not cause pain? The Boros Legion and Grull Clans immediately jump to battle, so couldn't they be called evil? Rakdos sticks mostly in one area and when harming others, they tend to stick within the confines of the Cult itself.
My moral chart is really loose on what evil actually is, in most cases. I've seen good reasons for murder and causing pain (tends to involve the defense of loved ones) and bad. Rakdos tends to be on the bad side of it, but most of the Cult stays in their parties and brothels, entertaining in the way they think best. Most of the people killed or harmed wandered in there themselves for their forms of "entertainment."
Bolas is a god within his own realm and is such an ancient and powerful being that if he really wanted to, he could find a way to not have to breath. He is, after all, the oldest living Planeswalker and one of the few that survived the Mending. He also is the one that was able to rip the Maelstrom (a mass of mana) away from Alara. It was put back, but he did it.
Also, at what point did I say that was self harm. And when is self harm ever evil? Blowing oneself up (see Showstopper ) could be considered evil in a way, in that you've splattered yourself all over innocent people, I suppose, but most cards aren't inherently evil.
September 11, 2013 6:26 p.m.
hochmaster says... #35
"I know plenty of masochists that are some of the best people I know in their moral alignment."
Masochism is self-harm for the sake of endorphine release, at the cost of one's health. This is undoubtedly bad.
Fighting causes unintended pain. If the boros could defend their plane without killing anyone, they would. They are like an army. The gruul kill those who trespass because they are animals, basically. If a challenge is proposed, they fight and undoubtedly harm each other for having no other way to solve a quarrel.
Sure, Nicol Bolas can find out ways not to breathe, but that just supports my argument, doesn't it? One less good thing that Bolas does. Not that it mattered anyway, evil people on our world live and breathe, just like Bolas.
Blowing yourself up and deliberately ending your life for any reason (other than sacrifice) is evil, because it is wasting the rarity that is life, on something that is quite trivial in comparison. You don't have to hurt other people to be evil; one can be plenty evil just hurting themselves.
September 11, 2013 6:37 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #36
Oh, I see. This is about to dissolve into religious debate. I apologize then, I'm going to go off and do other things while hoping that I'll one day be able to go on the internet and talk about such things without somebody confusing fantasy with reality.
September 11, 2013 7:08 p.m.
hochmaster says... #37
You said it, not me. Also, its foolish to think that you can ever debate about morality without delving into religion, because religion is heralded by morality itself.
In addition, how did I know you would be one of those guys who can't debate about anything if it doesn't agree with his personal beliefs(specifically "religion")? Doesn't matter what religion I pertain to, I can almost guarantee that nobody particularly cares about your hatred for confusion among "fantasy with reality", especially not here. I, for one, hope that one day I can talk about morality with people that don't try to pretend that hatred for belief is correct, and all ensuing subjects without someone claiming that religion is fantasy.
Don't apologize; it surely isn't your fault that you have an intolerance for civil debate.
September 11, 2013 7:22 p.m.
hochmaster says... #39
I apologize; I didn't want to argue with someone, I only argued like that because he basically called my beliefs fantasy. I only wanted to engage in civil debate, and nothing more.
September 11, 2013 7:50 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #40
I just don't want to get in a religious argument, not an argument about stuff I don't agree with. I get in them enough with friends, so I'm not going to do it with people I don't know.
September 11, 2013 8:06 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #41
By the way, I wasn't saying religion was fantasy, I was saying MtG is. Seriously, none of this stuff is real. I'm not going to touch your religion or my own with this.
September 11, 2013 8:28 p.m.
hochmaster says... #42
That certainly clears things up. Although, I must say, that last comment of yours certainly seems directed at religion, but no matter. Thank you for taking the time to write your disambiguations.
September 11, 2013 8:44 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #43
No, I was referring to Ravnican Guilds and all that.
September 11, 2013 8:45 p.m.
Samuel_The_Seer says... #44
The Golgari Swarm are basically Germany.Trying to overcome a sketchy past by feeding the poor lol.
September 12, 2013 1:39 p.m.
USADarksol says... #45
Here's the thing though...... you have to understand that guild rivalry takes priority over anything else, they would do anything to knock the other down a peg even if it means going against their "basic principles". Rakdos being the main point, they wanted to take out the Simic AND Golgari leaders in one shot. The sacrifice isn't important because death for the guild is actually expected. You have to go with how they operate inside the guild or to how they treat the neutral citizens.
September 13, 2013 9:24 a.m.
USADarksol says... #46
You're missing one crucial fact..... guild rivalry trumps everything else. They would do anything to knock another guild down a peg even if it goes against their basic moral alignment. The Rakdos stopping the Simic experiment is a great example of that. The Rakdos didn't give 2 craps about what the experiment did they just wanted to kill the Simic leader and set them back a ton. The sacrifice is expected in the Rakdos guild, they kill/sacrifice each other all the time for the guild/extra power.
TheOne4221 says... #2
I would venture to say that Golgari is Lawful Neutral. They're all about the death side of life and that death is indiscriminatory.
September 7, 2013 12:20 p.m.