To What Mechanic is Mark Rosewater Rferring in this Post?
General forum
Posted on June 18, 2025, 8:14 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
In this post, a user asked about the return of spike as a creature type, and Mark Rosewater responded by saying that spikes use a mechanic that he is skeptical about using, again, so to what mechanic is Rosewater referring, and why is he skeptical, about it?
DemonDragonJ says... #3
berryjon, yes, I do know that, but I do not understand what is wrong with that, as that seems to be a perfectly fair mechanic, to me, since I believe that removing a counter from a creature to pay for an ability cost is a nice alternative (or additional cost) to paying mana.
June 18, 2025 11:25 p.m.
I'm going to take a guess and say that someone on the design team doesn't really like moving counters around. The Spikes don't specifically use the word "move", but it's functionally the same most of the time. If you treat the Spikes as moving counters, they make up almost a quarter of all counter-moving cards. No other set has more than two (although Ikoria + Commander 2020 has three, and those introduced keyword counters). I can find only two other cards with an ability similar to the Spikes, in Benevolent Hydra and Salt Road Quartermasters.
While it's not a bad mechanic, and it's simple enough in a vacuum, it gets more complicated with Hardened Scales/Branching Evolution/whatever, and those kind of effects have been on the rise. So my guess is that's the source of the tension with Spikes.
June 19, 2025 2:28 a.m.
I'm inclined to agree with legendofa that the printing of more support cards that increase +1/+1 counters could be part of it. If you have something with a Hardened Scales type effect on the board then a Spike creature can remove a counter targeting itself to put the now increased number of counters back on itself, gradually make it bigger and bigger.
I think that another part of the issue from WotC's standpoint is that Spikes can move their counters around at instant speed. The ability to redistribute counters at instant speed as the defending player is a strong advantage that can really discourage the opponent from attacking into you in a number of circumstances. Not knowing for sure where the counters will go in conjunction with not knowing what removal the defending player has means an attacking player could be risking a complete blowout if they attack, so they may end up being a lot more hesitant. WotC isn't the biggest fan of stalled out games because they can make for boring tournament play.
The currently printed Spike creatures don't have particularly great stat lines when compared to current power standards. As useful as their ability can be, aggro decks these days have much more potent creature options at their disposal. If new spikes were to be printed, does WotC keep to the old model cost/power ratio and risk them not see much use outside of draft or do they get scaled up to current standards and risk putting a major hamper on other creature strategies? It's a tough line to navigate, so I'm not surprised that Mark Rosewater would basically say "Eh, we're not really interested in bringing them back."
June 19, 2025 7:12 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #6
SaberTech, being able to move +1/+1 counters as an instant, for defensive purposes, is exactly why I am fond of such a mechanic, and I do hope that WotC continues to support it, since I am growing frustrated with so much focus on attacking and less focus on blocking and/or defending, in recent sets.
berryjon says... #2
They were a Green Creature Type with a single black example, that had and moved +1/+1 counters around as activated abilities.
June 18, 2025 8:43 p.m.