How does howl of the horde work with itself?
Asked by Sathanas 9 years ago
So I'm wondering what happens if you cast Howl of the Horde after already casting another Howl of the Horde ? Assuming the raid triggers on both I would get 1 copy of the first Howl would I get 3 of the 2nd Howl and would that allow me to cast my next sorcery or instant 9 times?
Wait, I missed the third Howl, so you'd get another 2 copies of Shock , so you'd get x7.
September 22, 2014 3:06 p.m.
OK yes thank you for the response I forgot you don't get the extra two basic casts of the card you play of the 2nd horde. I was assuming three casts per Horde because the original + the two copies but you only get the original copy once plus the 2 extra per Howl.
September 22, 2014 3:38 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
That is partially incorrect. You would have nine copies of Shock if you cast three Howl of the Horde s.
Howl of the Horde
B1 (from A)
Howl of the Horde
B2 (from A)
Howl of the Horde
C1 (from B1)
Howl of the Horde
C2 (from B1)
Howl of the Horde
C3 (from B2)
Howl of the Horde
C4 (from B2)
Shock
#1
Shock
#2 (from C1)
Shock
#3 (from C1)
Shock
#4 (from C2)
Shock
#5 (from C2)
Shock
#6 (from C3)
Shock
#7 (from C3)
Shock
#8 (from C4)
Shock
#9 (from C4)
If you cast only two Howl of the Horde s, you would have five copies of Shock .
Note also that raid is not a triggered ability. It doesn't trigger.
September 22, 2014 4:38 p.m.
Well OK rather then that raid is active for the turn via attacking with a 1/1 token or something. So I should get the original card cast after Howl of the Horde plus two additional from the raid effect of Howl so the first howl should affect the next sorcery or instant to be cast an additional two times as well as the original cast. Which from my understanding would give me three copies of the spell cast after the first Howl of the Horde . Another question I have about this is could I target different sorceries or instants with each copy of Howl of the Horde because it states that I can choose new targets for the copies of the spell cast.
September 22, 2014 5:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
First, Howl of the Horde doesn't have any targets. It creates a delayed triggered ability (DTA) that triggers the next time you cast an instant or sorcery spell in the current turn, regardless of what that spell is. You don't get to postpone the DTA for another spell.
Howl of the Horde multiplies your spells exponentially if the raid condition is met. You'll have three, five, or nine total instances of a spell if you cast one, two, or three Howl of the Horde s, respectively. This is assuming the Howl of the Horde s are cast sequentially, so each one applies its effect to the next Howl of the Horde , then the last one applies its effect to the end instant or sorcery.
September 22, 2014 5:33 p.m.
How is it only 3, 5, and 9. Shouldn't it be 3, 7, 15 with respectively 1,2, and 3 casts of Howl of the Horde .My reasoning:Casting Howl of the Horde with raid active will get you two copies of whatever you cast after Howl of the Horde as well as the original.So Howl of the Horde + Lightning Strike = Original LS + non-raid effect copying the spell once + the 2nd half of the raid effect.Because Howl of the Horde says the next instant or sorcery is copied and then the raid effect says copy that spell an additional time.
So casting Howl of the Horde after Howl of the Horde (with raid active) would give as below:
Howl of the Horde B1 (original cast) Howl of the Horde B2 (non-raid copy) Howl of the Horde B3 (additional raid copy)
Lightning Strike C1 (Original Cast)Lightning Strike C2 (Non-raid copy of B1)Lightning Strike C3 (Raid copy of B1)Lightning Strike C4 (Non-raid copy of B2)Lightning Strike C5 (Raid copy of B2)Lightning Strike C6 (Non-raid copy of B3)Lightning Strike C7 (Raid copy of B3)
Shouldn't it work like that with raid active? Sorry if the formatting is bad can't tell if the preview is how its going to post or if it will post how I typed it.
September 22, 2014 7:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
The preview is exactly that - a preview of how the post will look.
As for the numbers, you're correct. I forgot to factor B and C themselves into the equation, so you would indeed end up with 3, 7, and 15.
September 22, 2014 8:36 p.m.
OK, that it was I thought thank you for confirming. Any advice on how I can get the posting to turn out like yours did the first time? Just tabs and spaces? Because I was trying to format it with enters and it turned out like it did.
September 22, 2014 9:33 p.m.
MarvinPointiacIII says... #11
I think what we have here is an ultimate draw condition:
- Play Howl of the Horde A
- Play Howl of the Horde B
- Argue for 49 minutes about how the math plays out
- Draw
October 15, 2014 8:10 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
If you're going to necro, at least provide something constructive.
October 15, 2014 8:19 p.m.
This helped me a ton. Now I need to figure it out on my own so I have a real explanation for my opponents :)
October 17, 2014 8:08 p.m.
Sorry guys, I am still confused. I come up with the original equation of 3 / 5 / 7.
Anyone care to break it down neatly? No intention to insult what was written above. Was a bit hard to follow.
Thanks. I guess I'm the struggling student in the class :)
October 17, 2014 8:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
Let A0, B0, etc. represent the original spells, and all subsequent numbers represent the copies from the previous Howl of the Horde 's delayed triggered ability.
Howl of the Horde
B0
Howl of the Horde
B1 (from A)
Howl of the Horde
B2 (from A)
Howl of the Horde
C0
Howl of the Horde
C1 (from B0)
Howl of the Horde
C2 (from B0)
Howl of the Horde
C3 (from B1)
Howl of the Horde
C4 (from B1)
Howl of the Horde
C5 (from B2)
Howl of the Horde
C6 (from B2)
Shock
#1
Shock
#2 (from C0)
Shock
#3 (from C0)
Shock
#4 (from C1)
Shock
#5 (from C1)
Shock
#6 (from C2)
Shock
#7 (from C2)
Shock
#8 (from C3)
Shock
#9 (from C3)
Shock
#10 (from C4)
Shock
#11 (from C4)
Shock
#12 (from C5)
Shock
#13 (from C5)
Shock
#14 (from C6)
Shock
#15 (from C6)
October 17, 2014 9:15 p.m.
Thanks, man.
(Walks home from school with crumpled-up exam that has a big red F)
October 17, 2014 9:38 p.m.
Its actually 3 / 7 / 13 with Raid, in the example of casting Shock
I play Horde.
I play Horde again. This gives me 2 copies of Horde.
I play Shock. The 2 copies of Horde, plus original (latest one cast from hand), gives me 6 copies of Shock. Add to these copies the original Shock; 7 Shocks total.
Now, instead of Shock, I play a third Horde.
I get 6 copies from the three Hordes.
I cast Shock. This creates 12 copies of Shock. Add to it the original Shock cast; total of 13.
October 18, 2014 1:20 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
@RisingRogue: That's incorrect. See my explanation in post #15.
October 18, 2014 2:47 a.m.
It seems you are counting as if a copy of Horde makes 3 Shocks, where it does not. All copies of Horde, and last orginal Horde, make 2 Shocks each. Add the original-cast Shock to them. Those are your totals.
To clarify your point better, please explain where you believe I erred.
October 18, 2014 5:08 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
I had numbered them in my post so as to avoid exactly this confusion. You're missing a Howl of the Horde somewhere. Based on post #17, you forgot to count the original third Howl of the Horde .
Reread post #15 and pay special attention to the numbering scheme. That should clarify everything.
October 18, 2014 5:14 a.m.
Yes, I missed the original Horde in last count:
3 / 7 / 15
JWiley129 says... #1
I believe you'd get x5 for whatever spell you cast. Here's the breakdown, assuming your "payload" is a Shock .
My math may be off, but that's my rationale for how many copies you'd get.
September 22, 2014 3:05 p.m.