Cipher and Heroic triggers

Asked by LegendaryRob 10 months ago

So a friend and i are arguing over how this all works. say for instance i cast a Fabled Hero and want to use Hidden Strings . i use hidden strings to target Fabled Hero and another creature that has heroic like Akroan Crusader . both the heroic abilities trigger right. so the Fabled Hero gets +1+1 and the Akroan Crusader will make a creature. i then cipher the Hidden Strings on Fabled Hero so that when ever he deals combat damage then i get to cast copies of Hidden Strings that has a target creature ability. he claims that if a creature is targeted with the paper Hidden Strings then the heroic ability will trigger but then any cipher copy will not trigger the heroic ability regardless of the spells result that targets creatures.

His input comes form the wizzards ruling on Akroan Crusader found here http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373578

I have read a few articles that seem to differ http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/11/heroic-and-cipher-interactions/ and http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11485

so it seems that when the cipher is played it won't trigger. but if the spells abilities target the creature then its been targeted. this is all very confusing.

i just want to see the result of a battle scenario.

Fabled Hero and Akroan Crusader both are targeted by Hidden Strings cipher on Fabled Hero

then we swing with Fabled Hero . a cipher is played targeting both creatures, on the first strike damage goes through making the Fabled Hero a 4/4 and the Akroan Crusader produces another creature. then the second damage hits ciphering the spell again making the hero a 5/5 and the crusader produces another creatures. at the end of combat you have a 5/5 with double strike with the cursader and 3 creatures. is this possible. or where am i missing the plot.

Epochalyptik says... #1

You are correct; your friend is wrong.

First, Hidden Strings only has one ability, and it's cipher. Targeting is not an ability; its just a function of the spell.

I assume your friend is reading this ruling:
9/15/2013 Heroic abilities wont trigger when a copy of a spell is created on the stack or when a spells targets are changed to include a creature with a heroic ability.

Your friend would be correct, except he's overlooking one detail. Heroic triggers when you cast a spell that targets your own heroic creature. Cipher causes you to cast the copy spell. The above ruling only clarifies that copies that aren't cast don't trigger heroic because they don't meet one of the trigger conditions.

Also, if you cipher Hidden Strings onto a creature with double strike, cipher's delayed triggered ability will trigger during each combat damage step, thereby giving you two total copies. The first copy will be cast and will resolve before the second combat damage step, as will any heroic abilities that trigger when you cast that copy.

And although this isn't part of the question, it's worth mentioning two things just to clarify for everyone:
1) Cipher as a mechanic does not target anything.
2) A copy of a cipher spell is not a card and therefore can't be encoded onto anything.

November 13, 2013 3:57 a.m.

LegendaryRob says... Accepted answer #2

Thanks now i can carry on with my deck! it makes perfect sence now. you get 10 points

November 13, 2013 6:56 a.m.

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