Boss's chauffeur and multiple other creatures entering the battlefield at the same time
Asked by koylucumert 4 months ago
so Im planning to build a Nethroi, Apex of Death commander deck, and I was thinking of including boss's chauffeur because I thougth if I get Boss's Chauffeur and multiple other cards, the chauffeur will see those creatures both on the battlefield and as they enter the battlefield, and therefore will get two counters for each creature it comes together with. is this how that interaction works? if not, can someone explain what happens?
Gidgetimer says... #2
My problem is that the first ability isn't an ETB, it is a replacement effect. Creatures must already be on the battlefield to replace how another creatures enters. Clone has a ruling that states "If Clone somehow enters the battlefield at the same time as another creature, Clone can't become a copy of that creature. You may choose only a creature that's already on the battlefield." This ruling illustrates the point, but I can't find the comprehensive rule this is based on to cite, and Boss's Chauffeur doesn't have a similar ruling on Gatherer.
The Boss's Chauffeur will enter with one counter and then triggers will put two more on it for a total of three.
December 27, 2023 11:54 p.m.
koylucumert says... #3
Gidgetimer that was my issue as well, but I figured it can be different since cloning requires the characteristics of a creature and boss's chaufferu only requires the count on them so maybe thats where the difference is. although IDK. can I change my accepted answer if more correct information is presented?
December 28, 2023 7:20 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Accepted answers can be changed. I know that. The clone ruling is based on 614.12a, but it talks about choices being made and doesn't specify if a replacement effect modifying how a permanent enters the battlefield requires information from the game. We can use 602.8h, but again we come to the question of "is a permanent on the battlefield as it enters the battlefield?" The wording on Boss's Chauffeur sidesteps answering this by containing the word "other". It might be worth tweeting (X-ing?) Jess Dunks to find out.
614.12a If a replacement effect that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield requires a choice, that choice is made before the permanent enters the battlefield.
608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.
December 28, 2023 7:36 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
The first ability (the replacement effect) won't count other creatures entering at the same time. This is a result of the text in 608.2h quoted by Gidgetimer ("...the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied...") and the general explanation of replacement effects given in 614.1:
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.
The important part there is "replacement effects apply continuously as events happen", i.e. before the event is finished, because an event can't be replaced with a different one after it's already happened. Because the ETB event hasn't yet finished happening at the time you would apply the replacement effect, that means any other creatures entering at the same time haven't yet entered the battlefield either. This concept is also an important part of the Clone ruling quoted earlier.
The second ability (the triggered ability) will count other creatures entering at the same time, as as would normally happen for an ETB trigger like this.
wallisface says... Accepted answer #1
yes this is how it will work.
If multiple cards enter the battlefield at the same time, they all see each-other, and count each-other for all etb abilities.
So if for example Boss's Chauffeur enters the battlefield at the same time as two other creatures (and assuming you have no other creatures in play), then Boss's Chauffeur will end up with 5 counters on it.
December 26, 2023 7:29 p.m.