When do you choose targets?
Asked by Virlym 13 years ago
My opponent has 3 creatures and I have two. However, both of my creatures have hexproof. My opponent sacrifices one of his creatures to play Bone Splinters on one of my creatures (forgetting it had hexproof). What happens? Does the sacrificed creature come back to the field and Bone Splinters goes back to his hand? Or does he have to choose one of his creatures to destroy?
The person playing next to us said it would just go back to his hand because you have to declare targets before even paying for the spell (which didn't make sense). He said due to the targets being illegal when he cast the Bone Splinters , he couldn't cast it to begin with. So he would get his creature back, and his Bone Splinters .
I just went with it because I didn't care too much at the time. But that play ended up winning the match for him. So I just wanted to double check.
Epochalyptik says... #2
That is incorrect.
Your opponent announces that he or she is casting Bone Splinters. Then, he or she chooses the target for the spell. Then, he or she pays the cost for the spell and the spell is then considered cast.
If nobody caught that Bone Splinters was cast with an illegal target, the game state would rewind to right before it was cast. That means the creature he or she sacrificed would come back to the battlefield (it would NOT trigger any abilities by doing so), he or she untaps any objects tapped for mana to pay for the cost, and Bone Splinters is returned to his or her hand.
May 26, 2012 6:59 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... Accepted answer #3
Here are the rules to back up Epochalyptik
The third step in the casting of a spell:
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
The 7th Step in the casting of a spell:601.2g The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid.
So the target comes before anything is paid for the spell including the sacing of the permanent.
For illegal actions:
717.1. If a player realizes that he or she cant legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasnt reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.
Hence if your opponent wanted to target a creature with hexproof, the entire action would be reversed once it is realized.
May 26, 2012 7:30 p.m.
Thanks for all the rulings. It's still odd that you declare targets before you even pay for a spell though.
May 26, 2012 7:39 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #5
I agree it seems odd but who knew there were 8 steps in casting a spell lol. The 8th is of course putting it on the stack.
May 26, 2012 7:40 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
It's important to choose targets before calculating costs because there are some spells and abilities where the number of targets affects the total cost of the spell. Fireball is the classic example.
littleepic says... #1
Bone splinters resolves and has to target a creature. The sacrificed creature is gone(unless its got undying, then that triggers). Since your creatures are all hexproof, me must target his own, destroying one of them. It is cast and it has resolved, it does not go back to hand
May 26, 2012 6:49 p.m.