What if opponent kills the Geralf's Messenger I'm trying to copy with Phantasmal Image?
Asked by bigapple3am 13 years ago
I had a Geralf's Messenger with no counters on it and a Gravecrawler on the board and I cast Phantasmal Image to copy the Messenger. My opponent cast brimstone volley on the Messenger. What is supposed to happen next?
He thought that the messenger would come back but that the Phantasmal Image would die because it was trying to copy a creature that went to the graveyard. He believed that the Messenger would technically count as a different creature and not be the same thing that I tried to copy.
I thought that the Messenger dying and returning would resolve before the Image did, and thus the Image would be able to copy the Messenger. Also, undying is an ability of the Messenger, so it is the same Messenger chosen by the image returning to the battlefield.
Would I have still been able to copy the Messenger? Could I have chosen to copy the Gravecrawler instead after he killed the Messenger?
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
There are several misunderstandings here.
First, you don't choose (and therefore cannot announce) what Phantasmal Image will become a copy of until it resolves. At that point, you choose the creature it will copy as Image enters the battlefield. During this process, it is impossible for any player to respond to the choice because no player has priority during the resolution of a spell or ability.
Next, whenever a permanent leaves the battlefield and then returns, it is treated as an entirely new permanent with no memory of its past existence(s) on the field. Even though Geralf's Messenger is the same card when it returns to play through undying, it is not the same permanent.
If your opponent kills Geralf's Messenger in response to you casting Phantasmal Image, then the Messenger's undying ability will trigger and go on the stack above the Image. When that ability resolves, Messenger will return to the field, meaning that it will be there when the Image resolves later.
If your opponent lets Image resolve, he or she cannot respond to the choice of creature you make for its copy ability. No player will have priority again until after Image fully resolves and is on the field as a copy of the chosen creature.
March 31, 2012 2:58 a.m.
OmegaSerris says... #3
My mistake, Epochalyptik is right. I always thought Image's ability was a triggered ability (hence uses the stack and could be responded to). I didn't pay close attention to the wording. There is no "when," "whenever," or "at" in there.
Sorry about that. :-(
March 31, 2012 8:02 a.m.
rckclimber777 says... #4
This is surprisingly a common mistake. It happened to me back when I was running a bant pod. Someone tried to tell me that my metamorph would die because they killed the blade splicer I wanted it to copy. Fortunately I've learned the rule since then and Epochalyptik is 100% correct. As always. Man you're on a roll lately.
March 31, 2012 10:27 a.m.
aaron12891 says... #6
i dont necessarily agree with Epochalyptik on this one. it just doesnt sound like it works like that. since my human reflexes are probably more responsive and quicker then the stack or these so called "priorities" then i should be able to do anything i want in response to anything that i play in magic. see, i have my priorities straight here, i dont know about you. if you are faster then your opponent then it should resolve whenever you want.
April 1, 2012 4:53 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #7
aaron12891, your response is based on not knowing what the Stack and Priority are. It is a common misconception in Magic that you can respond to anything, I believed so myself when I first started playing. However, just like any game, MTG has a Comprehensive Rulebook that defines what players can and cannot do during the game. You cannot just stop your opponent at any time and try to play something, the game decides when a player is allowed to cast spells and activate abilities. Please read section 116 on Timing and Priority and section 405 on The Stack, you can download the Comprehensive Rulebook for free here. Learning about Priority and the Stack changed my life, it altered the game as I knew it. I remember when activating a Royal Assassin to kill an attacking creature before it dealt combat damage would spark an argument involving the entire room. Fortunately, Wizards has given us a way to understand the interactions of spells and abilities; the stack. I hope that this has opened your eyes aaron12891.
OmegaSerris says... #1
He was correct. Whenever a card changes zones, it loses all memory of what it was in that zone. It basically becomes a new version of that card. The same is true for everything else referring to that card, including spells/abilities on the stack.
You are correct that it will return before the Image's ability resolves. But as I said, it will be a 'new' Messenger. So the Image's ability will be countered since chosen object is now gone and it will enter as a 0/0 and then die to State Based Effects.
March 31, 2012 2:58 a.m.